Jacksonville Landing project dead

[Kerry]

While still on the Bayside topic, that tower was only made possible by the mysterious disappearance of a "Structurally Unsound Building" violation at Bayside.

[thelakelander]

^What building was that? Bayside is still standing and the tower location is on a pier they built a portion of the marina on. Looking at historic aerials, the tower site has been surface parking since the 1990s.

[JaxJersey-licious]

I'll be one of the few contrarians that think the Landing, though far from perfect, is ok in it's current form. Yes it's outdated and has failed to come close to fulfilling its potential and a major overhaul would be welcomed, but without that there are so many barriers keeping it from repurposing itself like the other examples mentioned. It doesn't have the numbers of visitors and conventions that make Bayside and Harborside so succesful, the Landing's lack of connectivity to the rest of downtown that's not on the water makes it less attractive as a major retail location, the area does not have the residential and gentrification support for a newer food market like DC's Union Market and it certainly lacks the quaint historical or generational appeal of more established places like Philly's Italian Baltimore's Lexington and Cincy's Findlay's markets even though most of the area surrounding them have seen better days.

What can't be overlooked are the 300+ events the Landing holds. I've always hoped that if the Elbow allowed for alcohol protablility and had more diverse nightlife options it could give the Landing a reason to improve and be more competitive, but if the Landing were to repurpose and add residential shrinking its footprint what other options are there for Fla-Ga and New Year revellers? It's a blessing having a central place where you can hang, drink, hear live music, enjoy the river, and spread out because without something like the Landing more pressure would be put on side streets and the riverwalk to handle event crowds.   

And if you think the Landing is a pice of crap, then you should really check out Norfolk's sad-ass version Waterside if it's even still there. And there are probably dozens of theses types of projects that had so much potential and are now underutilized. The Landing tennant mix can use some improvement and regular maintenance should not be too much to ask, but for the most part the Landing serves its purpose for now.   

[thelakelander]

I'll be one of the few contrarians that think the Landing, though far from perfect, is ok in it's current form. Yes it's outdated and has failed to come close to fulfilling its potential and a major overhaul would be welcomed, but without that there are so many barriers keeping it from repurposing itself like the other examples mentioned. It doesn't have the numbers of visitors and conventions that make Bayside and Harborside so succesful, the Landing's lack of connectivity to the rest of downtown that's not on the water makes it less attractive as a major retail location, the area does not have the residential and gentrification support for a newer food market like DC's Union Market and it certainly lacks the quaint historical or generational appeal of more established places like Philly's Italian Baltimore's Lexington and Cincy's Findlay's markets even though most of the area surrounding them have seen better days.

To a degree, the Landing's structure is one of the most iconic features in Jax's skyline. It's not quaint historical but after nearly 30 years, it is generational. That's something to build upon. Also, the Landing is a fraction of the size of some of the other places mentioned. So apples to apples can exist in certain situations but the scale would obviously be smaller. For example, Milwaukee's public market doesn't have the history and isn't the size of some of the examples mentioned above. Yet it works.

It's quite possible to carve up 125k square feet of space into a variety of uses. You simply preserve the best of what works now (waterfront dining and events) and reposition the remaining space to compliment them.

And if you think the Landing is a piece of crap, then you should really check out Norfolk's sad-ass version Waterside if it's even still there. And there are probably dozens of theses types of projects that had so much potential and are now underutilized. The Landing tennant mix can use some improvement and regular maintenance should not be too much to ask, but for the most part the Landing serves its purpose for now.

What happened to Waterside is what many have suggested for downtown at the shipyards, Friendship Fountain and Times-Union sites over the last decade. There's a huge mall that was built three blocks north of Waterside that opened in 1999. Norfolk isn't a big city. The big mall wins and the smaller festival marketplace losses. Subsidize something similar at another nearby DT Jax site and the Landing will look a lot worse than what it is today.

[thelakelander]

Btw, Orlando's East End Market is another interesting project that most would not expect to work in the location it's in:



https://www.eastendmkt.com/

I stopped in this place for dinner with a friend a few months back. It's no where near the size of the Landing but the idea could be applicable if the space were carved up, like an old suburban mall.

Luckily, the Landing only has 125,000 square feet of space.

Start carving it up with additional downtown needs, like a pharmacy, office supply store, cultural attraction, etc. and you'll max out the space before you know it.

On the other hand, trying to fill up Regency's 1.4 million square feet of space is a real struggle.

[ProjectMaximus]

Lake, I never gave you permission to post a photo of me

[FlaBoy]

Btw, Orlando's East End Market is another interesting project that most would not expect to work in the location it's in:



https://www.eastendmkt.com/

I stopped in this place for dinner with a friend a few months back. It's no where near the size of the Landing but the idea could be applicable if the space were carved up, like an old suburban mall.

Luckily, the Landing only has 125,000 square feet of space.

Start carving it up with additional downtown needs, like a pharmacy, office supply store, cultural attraction, etc. and you'll max out the space before you know it.

On the other hand, trying to fill up Regency's 1.4 million square feet of space is a real struggle.

All of this is so true. Does the city have any leverage in its lease to help nudge Sleiman into some new ideas?

[jaxjaguar]

Lol remember when years ago I mentioned the landing or any of the huge empty buildings downtown would be perfect for something like Columbus, Ohio's North Market? The east and south markets near downtown Orlando are basically miniature versions of the North Market in Ohio. I still think it would be extremely successful downtown and give tourists something to do in jax... But there's no way Sleighman invests any money into the Landing. He'd rather just collect what he can while it rots. He's part of the cancer affecting Jacksonville's poor strip mall structure. /end rant

Anyways, I live near the market Lake mentioned and it's always bustling with locals.

[thelakelander]

Speaking of Waterside, it's being revamped again. Much of what has been posted about what can be done with the Landing is being done in Norfolk right now. Markets, seafood vendors, restaurants, live events, brew pubs, bars?.....go figure....



http://cordishinthenews.com/news/press/526/the-cordish-companies-announce-the-name-of-norfolk/

[simms3]

I believe it was Steve Williams who had proposed not tearing down the landing, rather, give it a major face lift and make it something that is exclusively a Jax thing. Meaning, local everything. Perhaps add some sort of craft beer joint (or two), a local restaurant, local seafood produce?

Give it some variety that appeals to not only locals, but people visiting. It's not rocket science.

I had to look up Steve Williams...seems like he roared to the headlines in 2015, years after myself and others on this website created whole threads and detailed conversations discussing just that.  As JaxJaguar mentioned above, he referred to Columbus's North Market years ago as an inspiration.

Not rocket science here, you're right.

So Mayor Curry's Administration has finally killed the shit out of any hope of a locally led Downtown.

Awesome.

This is shaping up to be the best administration ever.

Killing the HRO, inviting national fringe characters like Ken Adkins and Roger Gannam, deliberately underfunding the Pension program, introducing partisan vindictiveness by firing all the female democrats from the various boards (Like Lisa King and Melody Bishop) almost the minute he got in office, Cancelling the Barnett, The Laura Trio, Land giveaways downtown to one of his Major Campaign Contributors (Khan), and now this.

Wow.  How could it possibly get better?

Public puppy executions? Nun slapping? Poisoned Apples?

Oy...I quit paying attention to this forum and to Jacksonville a long time ago.  I guess I figured it would progress, just too slowly for my patience.  But it sounds like the city has severely regressed and that the mayor is a fascist.  I don't even see Jacksonville in headlines for blunders, anymore...I just thought it kind of slipped into irrelevance.  Sounds like it exhausted its own occasional chance at 15 minutes for stupidity and it's just doing it's weird, anti-progressive thing over there.

And 90% of the population is the kind that would say "well we like it just fine, you don't have to like it" or "then don't move here" or "if you don't like it, leave"

My parents are part of that.  Complaining about how the economy still sucks, how Obama's ruining everything, etc etc.  NOPE It's that they are living in the Cleveland of the south/FL that is still growing only because it's warmer and there are no state income taxes, and cheap housing.  I think if you put Jax anywhere else, it sounds like it would be beating Buffalo to the bottom!

I'll be one of the few contrarians that think the Landing, though far from perfect, is ok in it's current form. Yes it's outdated and has failed to come close to fulfilling its potential and a major overhaul would be welcomed, but without that there are so many barriers keeping it from repurposing itself like the other examples mentioned. It doesn't have the numbers of visitors and conventions that make Bayside and Harborside so succesful, the Landing's lack of connectivity to the rest of downtown that's not on the water makes it less attractive as a major retail location, the area does not have the residential and gentrification support for a newer food market like DC's Union Market and it certainly lacks the quaint historical or generational appeal of more established places like Philly's Italian Baltimore's Lexington and Cincy's Findlay's markets even though most of the area surrounding them have seen better days.

What can't be overlooked are the 300+ events the Landing holds. I've always hoped that if the Elbow allowed for alcohol protablility and had more diverse nightlife options it could give the Landing a reason to improve and be more competitive, but if the Landing were to repurpose and add residential shrinking its footprint what other options are there for Fla-Ga and New Year revellers? It's a blessing having a central place where you can hang, drink, hear live music, enjoy the river, and spread out because without something like the Landing more pressure would be put on side streets and the riverwalk to handle event crowds.   

And if you think the Landing is a pice of crap, then you should really check out Norfolk's sad-ass version Waterside if it's even still there. And there are probably dozens of theses types of projects that had so much potential and are now underutilized. The Landing tennant mix can use some improvement and regular maintenance should not be too much to ask, but for the most part the Landing serves its purpose for now.   

Not going to repeat what others have said about the design/size, but downtown Miami for a long time has had a dearth of hotel rooms and not many draws...the convention center itself is very small and is in Miami Beach.  The arenas and cultural things are on the waterfront but too far away for Americans to consider walking, hotel options within walking are lacking.

All in all, Miami has more visitors, but to South Beach.  Bayside linked itself to that.  It would be no different than the Landing linking itself to something tourists to NE FL come to do.

Residential/gentrification support is hardly what draws these downtown marketplaces anywhere.

I lived as close to the Ferry Building in SF as one could and didn't make that my grocery - WAYYYY too expensive and a hastle dealing with the tourists.

The history there is that the Ferry Building was trapped behind a double decker freeway and surrounded by homeless and drug dealers for so long, and so when all that was cleared away, it's not like the crowds all of a sudden came in a day.  The programming started small.  Vendors were essentially paid to come in and take up space.  Now *they* pay $300-400/sf in many cases.  Not only that, there is event space for weddings, which happen daily, and a floor dedicated to office space, which now commands $100/sf NNN.

The biggest difference I see is that the city was willing to work with the owner, and the owner was a shrewd team, now a shrewd team at a prestigious publicly traded firm.

Similar to the Landing deal, the Port of SF owns the land and the building is leased.  That is how it should be with waterfront stuff.

[simms3]

I see that as an act of desperation, though, and I don't blame people.  Leaders have been so bad in Jax that a mentality of trying to get a new one, any new one, is pretty par for the course.  I can't remember if I had a view myself or if I had already bowed out of even paying attention...going to go back and see.

I've gone full tilt left in the last 12-18 months, though, so I'd vote for Stalin before I voted for Trump, Romney, or any Republican.

[simms3]

It just seems like yesterday we were choosing between Hogan and Brown!

I see that a year ago I was voting for Bernie and guns came up last December, happy to see I was as passionate then about it as I am now in the wake of Orlando.

I'm going to go back to paying attention to my own surroundings...we have enough lunacy over here with the housing crisis, to deal with.  Have fun with another "pretty" Republican little boy mayor!

[Kerry]

^What building was that? Bayside is still standing and the tower location is on a pier they built a portion of the marina on. Looking at historic aerials, the tower site has been surface parking since the 1990s.

It is still just proposed.  They couldn't get title insurance because Bayside was deemed structurally unsound - but then the violation disappeared from city records eventhough the repairs were never made.

[thelakelander]

http://skyrisemiami.com/skyrise-miami-construction/

Skyrise is currently under construction. Can you post a link to the story claiming Bayside was deemed structurally unsound?

I'm interested in learning more about it.

[heights unknown]

Much as I love my Jacksonville, this does not surprise me.