Could St. Johns County be getting its own version of the St. Johns Town Center?

[southsider1015]

Lake, the denser developments you've shown made financial sense based on their market analyses.  There was an overall demand for more residential housing in the area, a demand stronger than the available undeveloped area that denser residential units were needed.  So when the numbers work, the funding is approved, and the construction starts.

Just because it made financial sense in one area doesn't mean it should work everywhere.  To be critical of a type or density/intensity level of development without understanding the numbers isn't doing much for us. 

BTW, Aloft is a hotel (commercial), and most of the other developments I believe are apartments.  Those Nocatee SFR units are the cheapest in the area, just an entry-level product to try to cover that market.  Not enticing for me and my family by ANY means.

Of course I'm for fiscally-responsible development...who wouldn't be?  But that's like saying that I want a fiscally-responsible government; it sounds great, and everyone is for it, but how you get there is personal, with special interests, opinions, and perspectives.  It's too easy to just state that, and write something off behind that cause.

I'm all for the Mobility fee, and other methods, like LDRs, to encourage developments.  It's a great start to funding infrastructure, something I believe this country/state/city/community is in desperate need of.  It needs to be effective, clear, fair, and consistent to work correctly.

The American Car is NOT going anywhere for the next 50-100 years.  With autonomous and electric cars now in the immediate future, we'll need to plan for it now.  We're not Europe, and we'll likely never be in the transportation sense.  Should there be more investments in transit?  Absolutely, more investments in infrastructure.

Roadway design standards are always changing; maybe not in the sense that you're talking about, but the design vehicles haven't changed much in terms of size.

11' wide lanes are now the standard lane width for FDOT urban roadways:
http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rddesign/PPMManual/2016/Volume2/V2Chap06-exh.pdf

Of all the criticism made here about ANY developments, I've yet to read an opposing opinion from a landowner, developer, politician, bureaucrat, etc. about why a project is happening the way it is.  You're right; I would be amazed if I read their opinions here.

Also, can you better explain how outward development isn't sprawl?  What is "good" outward development?

[southsider1015]

What's the source that 9B was created for development?  This seems to be the overall knee jerk, anti-development opinion here on MJ.

What if, as the numbers show, that there was a real need to connect Bartram and North St. Johns to I-95 and I-295? 

There was and is a need for that.  But it could have been accomplished by adding an interchange at Racetrack Road and I-95.  Yes I know, the rest stop is too close.  Pretty sure that the rest stop could have been relocated or collector/distributor lanes added (like between Blanding and Collins on 295) for far less.

So, why choose the more expensive, more complicated, environmentally-destructive option?  The answer....opening up vacant land to development!

A 9B interchange directly with Racetrack would be WAY too close to the interchange with I-95.  Take a look at SR 115/MLK Pkwy for a better understanding of why you want to completely avoid locating interchanges too close.  Too much weaving/merging movements going on in the same area.  See JTB/I-295 and JTB/Kernan for another example.

If you were inferring that 9B be aligned in a different fashion to connect to I-95, please explain.   How would CD roads help?  Why is it too complicated?  With existing US 1 and I-95 so close to each other, there weren't an unlimited amount of interchange location and spacing options.

Again, without knowing the details of the acquisition deal between FDOT and Gate or landowners, it's difficult to say which is more expensive.  Are you aware of the price of freshwater wetland mitigation credits these days?  It's back to expensive prices when development was booming. 

If you've ever done business with FDOT, in any shape or form, they are the MOST dollar sensitive government agency I've ever witnessed.  EVERY decision/policy/detail has some type of price component to it, whether it be procurement, acquisition, design standards, guardrail type, etc.  Nothing can sole-sourced, two quotes are required for just about any dollar spent, and their financial tracking is pretty involved.  The alignment of 9B should have been analyzed to a level of detail that your head might spin, and to think that FDOT had an interest in spending any more money than necessary just to make Gate happy is ridiculous.

[ProjectMaximus]

Also, can you better explain how outward development isn't sprawl?  What is "good" outward development?

I know youre asking Ennis but to me he's clearly differentiating between Sprawl vs Smart Growth. You surely are aware of planners' pushing for more sustainable and walkable suburbs.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/features/00/earthpulse/sprawl/index_flash.html

[southsider1015]

Also, can you better explain how outward development isn't sprawl?  What is "good" outward development?

I know youre asking Ennis but to me he's clearly differentiating between Sprawl vs Smart Growth. You surely are aware of planners' pushing for more sustainable and walkable suburbs.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/features/00/earthpulse/sprawl/index_flash.html

Right, I'm familiar with the Smart Growth concepts.  Nocatee does capture these elements to some extent, but I believe many here have contended that Nocatee should be considered sprawl because of it's location.  I was thinking he might of meant something else.

I think the term "sprawl" is thrown around here on MJ and in other circles like its candy.  Everyone is a "planner" these days, without any formal education or a broad and depth understanding of what it really is.  It's almost always said with a negative connotation, even though the usage might be totally off basis in the literal sense.

Honestly, I've always been interested in urban planning, and I've thought about formal education and certification (AICP).

[ProjectMaximus]

I think the term "sprawl" is thrown around here on MJ and in other circles like its candy.  Everyone is a "planner" these days, without any formal education or a broad and depth understanding of what it really is.  It's almost always said with a negative connotation, even though the usage might be totally off basis in the literal sense.

This is true.

Honestly, I've always been interested in urban planning, and I've thought about formal education and certification (AICP).

You are welcome to join us on our learning trip to Baltimore. We'll have a couple urban planners and transit guys leading the tours!

[thelakelander]

Lake, the denser developments you've shown made financial sense based on their market analyses.  There was an overall demand for more residential housing in the area, a demand stronger than the available undeveloped area that denser residential units were needed.  So when the numbers work, the funding is approved, and the construction starts.

Yes. This basically proves the point I was trying to make. You said more density in this market did not make financial sense. I then presented examples from various suburban areas of the region that suggested otherwise.

Just because it made financial sense in one area doesn't mean it should work everywhere.  To be critical of a type or density/intensity level of development without understanding the numbers isn't doing much for us.

I never specified the type of building product or the specific amount of density.  I only stated, we need to increase density to become more fiscally sustainable in the long term.  Increased density and land use coordination can be achieved in a variety of ways and forms. Also, you're making an assumption that I've come to an option without understanding the numbers.
 

BTW, Aloft is a hotel (commercial), and most of the other developments I believe are apartments.  Those Nocatee SFR units are the cheapest in the area, just an entry-level product to try to cover that market.  Not enticing for me and my family by ANY means.

Needing more density doesn't apply to residential uses only. I used the Aloft as an example, because most of your hotels aren't built as sprawling motor lodges anymore. Even in the suburbs, they've evolved into more efficient multi-story footprints taking up much less land. If our local land use and zoning regulation would have kept up with the evolution of building design over the last few decades, our commercial areas would be denser as well. Such increased density would result in less public money having to be spent to widen roads because the setting would be more conducive to alternative forms of mobility. At a local level, this means extra money could be shifted to other areas and public needs that enhance our quality-of-life.

Of course I'm for fiscally-responsible development...who wouldn't be?  But that's like saying that I want a fiscally-responsible government; it sounds great, and everyone is for it, but how you get there is personal, with special interests, opinions, and perspectives.  It's too easy to just state that, and write something off behind that cause.

This is where some formal training and education would help. Fiscally-responsible development is possible. However, to get there, we have to acknowledge areas of where we've failed, fallen out of date, where technology requires change, etc. and then work to adapt to become more economically accommodating.

I'm all for the Mobility fee, and other methods, like LDRs, to encourage developments.  It's a great start to funding infrastructure, something I believe this country/state/city/community is in desperate need of.  It needs to be effective, clear, fair, and consistent to work correctly.

I agree.

The American Car is NOT going anywhere for the next 50-100 years.  With autonomous and electric cars now in the immediate future, we'll need to plan for it now.  We're not Europe, and we'll likely never be in the transportation sense.  Should there be more investments in transit?  Absolutely, more investments in infrastructure.

I agree.

Roadway design standards are always changing; maybe not in the sense that you're talking about, but the design vehicles haven't changed much in terms of size.

11' wide lanes are now the standard lane width for FDOT urban roadways:
http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rddesign/PPMManual/2016/Volume2/V2Chap06-exh.pdf

I'm actually looking forward to seeing what type of changes FDOT makes with their new complete streets policy:

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rddesign/CSI/Default.shtm

http://www.flcompletestreets.com/Files/FINAL-CSI-Implementation-Plan.pdf

Also, can you better explain how outward development isn't sprawl?  What is "good" outward development?

Riverside is the result of outward development. However, none of us would refer to it as "sprawl". Here's some pretty good definitions of what "sprawl" is and what its characteristics are:

What is Sprawl?

"Sprawl is defined as the process in which the spread of development across the landscape far outpaces population growth. The landscape sprawl creates has four dimensions:

a population that is widely dispersed in low-density development;
rigidly separated homes, shops, and workplaces;
a network of roads marked by huge blocks and poor access;
a lack of well-defined thriving activity centers, such as downtown's and town centers;
a lack of transportation choices other than personal cars,
and difficulty of walking as a result of housing locations."
--Smart Growth America

"Sprawl is irresponsible, often poorly-planned development that destroys green space, increases traffic and air pollution, crowds schools, and drives up taxes." --The Sierra Club


"Sprawl features rapid geographic expansion of metropolitan areas in a "leapfrog," low density pattern, segregation of distinct land uses, heavy dependence on automobile travel with extensive road construction, architectural and social homogeneity, shift of capital investment and economic opportunity from the city center the the periphery, and relatively weak regional planning."
--Rollins School of Public Heath, Emory University


"Sprawl is a regional pattern of real estate development that is characterized by:

Low density;
Unlimited and non-continuous outward expansion;
Spatial segregation of different land uses;
Consumption of outer suburban agricultural lands and environmentally sensitive lands;
Travel dominance by motor vehicle;
Lack of integrated land use planning."
--10,000 Friends of Pennsylvania

source: http://www.ei.lehigh.edu/envirosci/enviroissue/sprawl/whatissprawl.html

Last, I'd offer up Baldwin Park (suburban Orlando) as an example of good outward development in Florida that would not be classified as sprawl. Its layout, mix of land uses and integration into the existing street network defies the general characteristics of "sprawl" that are listed above.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

This development is happening in SJC?  Don't they still charge pretty hefty impact fees to the developers?

Didn't our very own city council put a moratorium on our Mobility fees because they prevent developments like this from happening?

Perplexing....

[tufsu1]

A 9B interchange directly with Racetrack would be WAY too close to the interchange with I-95. 

I was suggesting that 9B didn't need to be built at all.  Northern St. Johns County could have been better served by an I-95 interchange with Racetrack Road. 

and yes, I am quite familiar with FDOT.  I have worked on projects for and with them for over 20 years.

[120North]

A 9B interchange directly with Racetrack would be WAY too close to the interchange with I-95. 

I was suggesting that 9B didn't need to be built at all.  Northern St. Johns County could have been better served by an I-95 interchange with Racetrack Road. 

and yes, I am quite familiar with FDOT.  I have worked on projects for and with them for over 20 years.

There isn't enough room for an interchange at racetrack and I-95.  There are houses from Bartram on the NE quad of the intersection.  The rest area is very close on the sw quad.  The queue length off of I-95S at rush hour,while not blanding-eqsue would be larger than the OSA queue that spills onto I-95 and hoses up the I-95/I-295.  Also, CR210 is pretty much at an acceptable LOS now with the latest improvements.  Add fully developed Shearwater and the crystal lagoon neighborhood to the mix and CR210 craps out again.  The fact that 9-B will essentially connect CR2209 straight to I-95, gives much relief to the overall system with future connectivity south of CR210. 

If you want less SJC development (i.e. sprawl) there is one super important thing that has to be done, and that is improve the DCPS system.  I have 5 school aged kids and I am in SJC because the quality of the public education is simply better than Duval.  No insult to the hard working teachers of Duval and Duval graduates (I was one myself).