Laura Street Trio in Trouble? Updated status of six key Downtown projects

[whyisjohngalt]

The "outside of Jax" support - that seemingly vets the project to you - is willing to do so without a garage?

Then by all means, proceed with the $xx million from the city - which still hasn't been approved - and proceed with the plan.  It seems like the ask is being fuddled.

[CCMjax]

The "outside of Jax" support - that seemingly vets the project to you - is willing to do so without a garage?

Then by all means, proceed with the $xx million from the city - which still hasn't been approved - and proceed with the plan.  It seems like the ask is being fuddled.

Well, what "vets" the project as a whole to me is that it is something that absolutely has to happen for downtown Jax to have any chance of a Renaissance that its citizens and leaders have been waiting for for decades.  There has been a new interest in downtowns across the country the last two decades and Jax is in danger of yet again missing the boat while many other cities continue to ride the wave of people moving back closer to city cores and improving downtown activity.  From what I have read and know about Atkins and SEG I don't think they are qualified to go it alone on a project like this, which is why I am not surprised it didn't work out before.  This seems to be your main argument too if you go back and read your posts.  However, if he partners with the right people, which it looks like he has a pretty good team this time, it should have a good chance of being a success.  It's business 101, if you want to expand your brand and take on a different market, it's a good idea to partner with those who have additional resources and the knowledge.  It's similar to Danis and Batson-Cook (two large competing local contractors) teaming up on certain projects.  They may not have the resources to go it alone on a particularly large project with a lot at stake but both want to gain that big project experience and maybe it's an opportunity to push into a certain market.

And I'm not saying the COJ should let them proceed without establishing an agreement and just leave the $$numbers hanging out there in space, come on!  But they need to come to an agreement that makes sense for everyone and do it quickly and efficiently.  We all know how developments like this evolve at this state.  The longer they go in limbo the more likely the investors are to drop out one by one and shift their resources elsewhere, ie in this case not Jacksonville.  It's not a pipe dream project like the latest tallest building in the world IN IRAQ, with some smoked up futuristic mega city surrounding it that doesn't actually exist, crazy talk.  It's not a $500 million shipyards project, that would actually be more like $1 billion+ if they built what was shown in those renderings.  It is a relatively straight forward renovation and the best possible reuse of iconic, functional historic buildings already built in the center of the city.  It is proposed to be less than $100 million and the city would only have to account for what sounds like somewhere between 10-20% at most.  Not unheard of, and actually a pretty good deal, for a major revitalization spark project for a city the size of Jacksonville.  DT Jax has done a fairly good job improving the streetscape on Laura Street, sprucing up and bringing more activity to Hemming Park and surrounding area, and doing little improvements here and there.  That sets up nicely for a large restoration project right in the center of all that recent investment. 

Anyway, I have cut way too much into my Thanksgiving on this topic, that is how important I think this project is.  I'm going to eat some turkey now!

[whyisjohngalt]

Hey, CCM, you're absolutely right.

I am simply proposing that the best thing for this project (and the city) is for Atkins/SEG to not be involved.

Thanks for your insight and clear reasoning instead of close minded cheerleading.

[heights unknown]

normally it makes me crazy as well.  Which makes the typo doubly embarrassing, lol.  My bad.

Stephen you know you're alright; they might try to work you but you hold up very well; now, let's try and help to get that Laura Trio rebuilt, up, and open for business.

[RattlerGator]

[1] Maybe you could start, Stephen, by explaining why you're so fixated on the identity of this person. My goodness, are the questions and concerns posed rendered illegitimate by anonymity? Really?

[2] If this type of package is not unheard of and actually a pretty good deal for a major revitalization spark project for a city the size of Jacksonville -- why has it been so damn difficult to get this thing done? It seems exceedingly convenient to blame this largely on the supposed layers of incompetent bureaucracy within the City of Jacksonville or on a cadre of disinterested local power elite.

[Glue182]

Hello to All - I've read for a long time but am new to posting this forum.  I'm not sure if all these comments come from people who are "in the know", but it seems like there are personal agendas here.  I for one am very interested in seeing the Barnett and Laura Street Trio redeveloped, and I went to the meeting at DIA last week and listened to the plans very carefully.  I will say that I was quite impressed with what is being proposed from the developer team.

Atkins and his team seem to have a firm grip on this project and the investment they are proposing is a substantial one.  The City would be wise to make the proposed public investment as this would revolutionize the center of downtown.  One of the previous comments suggested that Atkins shouldn't be involved.  That seems like a ridiculous statement as the man owns the property.  I happen to know a surgeon that operates out of a facility that Atkins developed and owned years ago. He swears by the guy and says he's the best landlord that he's ever had.  Aside from that, the folks he is working with, contractors, architects, etc. are all names that say success.  Seems like that is the real deal.

For as long as those buildings have sat vacant in the middle of downtown and based on the condition that they are in, we should all probably be very supportive of anyone willing to make it happen, especially with the tenants that are signed-up (Chase, Marriott, the Marble Bank restaurant). If those type of companies are on-board, then the plan must be solid.

Why do we continually tear down the stuff we keep saying we need and the people trying to make it happen.  Seems to me that is what has held our city back. Set personal agendas aside and let's get it done.  If not this, then what?? I haven't seen anyone else step-up. I say thanks Mr. Atkins!

[CCMjax]

[1] Maybe you could start, Stephen, by explaining why you're so fixated on the identity of this person. My goodness, are the questions and concerns posed rendered illegitimate by anonymity? Really?

[2] If this type of package is not unheard of and actually a pretty good deal for a major revitalization spark project for a city the size of Jacksonville -- why has it been so damn difficult to get this thing done? It seems exceedingly convenient to blame this largely on the supposed layers of incompetent bureaucracy within the City of Jacksonville or on a cadre of disinterested local power elite.

With regards to #2, nobody has had a serious credible plan for these buildings until now.  It was vacant for a long time then Kuhn bought it from the city before the market crashed and then he went bankrupt, then Atkins bought it with a serious plan but maybe not the proper backing, and now he is back with better backing and support. 

The interest in historic building reuse simply hasn't been there in Jacksonville like it has been in many other places, I have come to understand this over the last 3 years of living here.  For whatever reason, the interest in downtown simply hasn't been there in general.  As I said previously, investors have been scared to be the downtown pioneer here in Jax, which I don't quite follow and don't know all the details, but nobody wants to lead the charge.  It could have to do with the projects that did happen suffered from very bad timing and bad luck and weren't very successful, or it could have to do with dealing with the city, but I'd bet it's based mostly on comparables not doing well.  The market is changing, we are starting to see more serious interest in downtown and eventually someone is going to break through and this team that Atkins has put together is the best so far to do it in my opinion.

[CCMjax]

Hello to All - I've read for a long time but am new to posting this forum.  I'm not sure if all these comments come from people who are "in the know", but it seems like there are personal agendas here.  I for one am very interested in seeing the Barnett and Laura Street Trio redeveloped, and I went to the meeting at DIA last week and listened to the plans very carefully.  I will say that I was quite impressed with what is being proposed from the developer team.

Atkins and his team seem to have a firm grip on this project and the investment they are proposing is a substantial one.  The City would be wise to make the proposed public investment as this would revolutionize the center of downtown.  One of the previous comments suggested that Atkins shouldn't be involved.  That seems like a ridiculous statement as the man owns the property.  I happen to know a surgeon that operates out of a facility that Atkins developed and owned years ago. He swears by the guy and says he's the best landlord that he's ever had.  Aside from that, the folks he is working with, contractors, architects, etc. are all names that say success.  Seems like that is the real deal.

For as long as those buildings have sat vacant in the middle of downtown and based on the condition that they are in, we should all probably be very supportive of anyone willing to make it happen, especially with the tenants that are signed-up (Chase, Marriott, the Marble Bank restaurant). If those type of companies are on-board, then the plan must be solid.

Why do we continually tear down the stuff we keep saying we need and the people trying to make it happen.  Seems to me that is what has held our city back. Set personal agendas aside and let's get it done.  If not this, then what?? I haven't seen anyone else step-up. I say thanks Mr. Atkins!

Glue - welcome to the board.  I have no personal agenda in this other than I want to see Laura Street become a great American street and downtown become a place of interest other than just an area of town people pass through to get to an event at the sports complex.  And the historic buildings on this block are critically important to the significance of DT Jax if restored.  If left in the current state or demolished, all hope will be lost for any revitalization of downtown any time soon because it will be such a devastating morale blow to everyone interested in downtown and will turn countless other investors away who are currently eyeballing this project and watching how it goes.  Again, NOBODY WANTS TO BE A PIONEER, but if someone goes in first and gets the ball rolling, others will follow.  Atkins is willing to do this with minimal and extremely manageable help from the city.  A deal must get done this time around.  I cannot speak for the agendas of others on this board, whether they are investors or whether they for some reason would like to torpedo this project.

[mtraininjax]

Everyone I speak with, city planning or people fond of downtown all want to see this project take wings and fly, but there is only so much you can do with it, as it carries a stigma of negativity ever since Kuhn came to town to tell us his vision, before the crash. No doubt it is a great space, but Atkins may be his own worst enemy.

Look at the Bostwick building, the family tried for years to get the building torn down, get out from the city fines, so what do they do? They sell to the food/eatery group and get out from under the building and let someone else take over the building and a business at the site. The bad karma gone, removed from the table.

For years, the city had no idea what to do or how to replace the aging Met Park Amphitheater, and now it looks as though it may have an answer and partner with Khan. City got out of its own way to look to make this happen for the citizens who want to go to outdoor concerts closer to Jax, than SA.

Atkins bought the trio in 2011, asked for 5 million in tax credits then, now has come back and asked for 8 million, not unheard of in real estate for figures to change, but there are now new "equity partners", who need good and proper vetting, as no one wants to see the City invest 8 million and the partners decide to pull out. Its a big project, a big deal and could be a serious black eye, (Shipyards) if not vetted properly, even then, it could still blow up.

My question, as someone who does not do these deals or work in this large of a real estate project, why not just get US Bank or Mulasky to float the 8 million that the city is being asked to provide? Why does this project "need" city cash? If the deal is really that good to start with, why not find another local partner or some bank to provide the funding? 8 million is a lot for a project that impacts a select few.

[CCMjax]

Everyone I speak with, city planning or people fond of downtown all want to see this project take wings and fly, but there is only so much you can do with it, as it carries a stigma of negativity ever since Kuhn came to town to tell us his vision, before the crash. No doubt it is a great space, but Atkins may be his own worst enemy.

Look at the Bostwick building, the family tried for years to get the building torn down, get out from the city fines, so what do they do? They sell to the food/eatery group and get out from under the building and let someone else take over the building and a business at the site. The bad karma gone, removed from the table.

For years, the city had no idea what to do or how to replace the aging Met Park Amphitheater, and now it looks as though it may have an answer and partner with Khan. City got out of its own way to look to make this happen for the citizens who want to go to outdoor concerts closer to Jax, than SA.

Atkins bought the trio in 2011, asked for 5 million in tax credits then, now has come back and asked for 8 million, not unheard of in real estate for figures to change, but there are now new "equity partners", who need good and proper vetting, as no one wants to see the City invest 8 million and the partners decide to pull out. Its a big project, a big deal and could be a serious black eye, (Shipyards) if not vetted properly, even then, it could still blow up.

My question, as someone who does not do these deals or work in this large of a real estate project, why not just get US Bank or Mulasky to float the 8 million that the city is being asked to provide? Why does this project "need" city cash? If the deal is really that good to start with, why not find another local partner or some bank to provide the funding? 8 million is a lot for a project that impacts a select few.

First of all, I believe the city investment would be incremental, ie if they never broke ground I don't think they would lose anything, possibly a million or two.  If they only make it to 50% the city has only paid around $4 mil and maybe another developer jumps in at that point.  I don't know if that is exactly how it will be written up but I have heard it will be incremental, so the city wouldn't be in danger of losing $8 mil with no work done.

Second, as said before, with all the work needed to be done on the buildings and the current market rates, it is likely that the project will not be profitable for the developers if they fork over 100% of the investment money.  Maybe the way their numbers work out, they would be about $8 mil short of where they want to be in the end, I don't know, but this is likely why they need city money.  Incentives from the city are proposed for just about every project like this.  But the city would not be throwing money away on this, it is an investment in downtown's future and myself and many others don't think downtown can truly become great until these buildings are restored.  It's the heart and soul of downtown.  As a taxpayer I would gladly sacrifice a little extra in the next couple years to make it happen.

[whyisjohngalt]

At this point, anything with the words "Laura Street Trio" attached to it goes into the "meaningless press release" pile. I wish they would just not even mention it anymore until someone has actually started construction.

[Glue182]

Atkins bought the trio in 2011, asked for 5 million in tax credits then, now has come back and asked for 8 million, not unheard of in real estate for figures to change, but there are now new "equity partners", who need good and proper vetting, as no one wants to see the City invest 8 million and the partners decide to pull out. Its a big project, a big deal and could be a serious black eye, (Shipyards) if not vetted properly, even then, it could still blow up.

FYI... Atkins didn't buy the Trio until 2013.

[Glue182]

My question, as someone who does not do these deals or work in this large of a real estate project, why not just get US Bank or Mulasky to float the 8 million that the city is being asked to provide? Why does this project "need" city cash? If the deal is really that good to start with, why not find another local partner or some bank to provide the funding? 8 million is a lot for a project that impacts a select few.

That's a fair question, and the answers is that it takes a public investment to make a public/private/partnership work. If you look at the numbers, you can see that without the public investment, the private investors don't make much if anything in return on their investment.  Unfortunately, the Jacksonville market doesn't offer big returns on its own, at least not yet.  If we want others to invest in Jacksonville, then you have to incentivize that to get it started.  Look at every deal the city has made with companies to relocate to downtown in the last several years. They all get incentive $ and they certainly don't need the money.  Seems to me if we want to turn our city's downtown around, this is what it takes until it can attract and support all types of businesses on its own.  But to say it only effects a select few isn't fair in my opinion.  This project would transform the center of downtown.  That has a value onto itself that we may not even be able to measure and ultimately gets us where we want to be as a competitive marketplace.

[tpot]

If this project ever gets started and or completed, it's going to take a lot more than this single project to turn downtown JAX around.....this is a start but it's wrong to think that this project will fix all that is wrong with the core of downtown JAX....

[Glue182]

Agreed, there's a lot that's needed.  But I don't think you get there without it.