90 Million more to be spent on Everbank Stadium?

[edjax]

Some of the regulars on this board . . . I mean, damn. Like CG7, it's hard to see this as something other than a win-win. And, it solves the Metropolitan Park problem.

Believe it or not, this project seriously helps the urban core -- it's going to bring some real life to downtown on a much more regular basis. The practice facility is going to have utility far beyond a practice space for the Jags.

Take a step back; give the bitching and moaning a break.

Then why don't you and your Jaguar-loving buddies pay for the fucking thing and not saddle everyone else with the bill.

See, this exact argument is made against all forms of cultural spending. Generally, the amount particular individuals pay isn't a whole lot.

You're right. But in this case, we're talking about using the public purse to finance a very profitable business owned by a billionaire. We're not talking about schools, roads, libraries, museums or trains.

Maybe the individual cost isn't very high, but the principle of the matter is what is at stake. Especially when we are having problems funding those other, far more important, things.

Except that the bed tax can not be used for any of those things you mentioned.

[Cheshire Cat]

Well, the number is $45 million. Let's be clear-if Khan wants to spend money then that's his business.

Another question-what's the ROI on the Arena? On the Baseball Grounds? On the Library?

Yes, this ^

[Steve]

Well, the number is $45 million. Let's be clear-if Khan wants to spend money then that's his business.

Another question-what's the ROI on the Arena? On the Baseball Grounds? On the Library?

Yes, this ^

Well, my point was that some times as a city, you invest in something that will have its return measure in quality of life, not a dollars and cents ROI. I thought those three projects were worth it. Now, the demolition that came from some of those, I wasn't in favor of.

[jph]

Why does there need to be a Jaguars practice field taking up prime downtown real estate?

Why should a brand new amphitheater be in a parking lot by the stadium instead of the riverfront park next door or somewhere closer to the core of downtown?

[Tacachale]

Some of the regulars on this board . . . I mean, damn. Like CG7, it's hard to see this as something other than a win-win. And, it solves the Metropolitan Park problem.

Believe it or not, this project seriously helps the urban core -- it's going to bring some real life to downtown on a much more regular basis. The practice facility is going to have utility far beyond a practice space for the Jags.

Take a step back; give the bitching and moaning a break.

Then why don't you and your Jaguar-loving buddies pay for the fucking thing and not saddle everyone else with the bill.

See, this exact argument is made against all forms of cultural spending. Generally, the amount particular individuals pay isn't a whole lot.

You're right. But in this case, we're talking about using the public purse to finance a very profitable business owned by a billionaire. We're not talking about schools, roads, libraries, museums or trains.

Maybe the individual cost isn't very high, but the principle of the matter is what is at stake. Especially when we are having problems funding those other, far more important, things.

As far as that goes, this doesn't appear to be another expense just for the stadium (like big scoreboards) Leaving the actual stadium improvements aside, is $45 million an imprudent cost for a badly needed concert amphitheater and a multi-use indoor field? An amphitheater of that size could cost that much just by itself, and it's something we've been missing for 20 years. Whether rich guys stand to benefit or not, amenities like those are important.

[Cheshire Cat]

Some of the regulars on this board . . . I mean, damn. Like CG7, it's hard to see this as something other than a win-win. And, it solves the Metropolitan Park problem.

Believe it or not, this project seriously helps the urban core -- it's going to bring some real life to downtown on a much more regular basis. The practice facility is going to have utility far beyond a practice space for the Jags.

Take a step back; give the bitching and moaning a break.

Then why don't you and your Jaguar-loving buddies pay for the fucking thing and not saddle everyone else with the bill.

See, this exact argument is made against all forms of cultural spending. Generally, the amount particular individuals pay isn't a whole lot.

You're right. But in this case, we're talking about using the public purse to finance a very profitable business owned by a billionaire. We're not talking about schools, roads, libraries, museums or trains.

Maybe the individual cost isn't very high, but the principle of the matter is what is at stake. Especially when we are having problems funding those other, far more important, things.

As far as that goes, this doesn't appear to be another expense just for the stadium (like big scoreboards) Leaving the actual stadium improvements aside, is $45 million an imprudent cost for a badly needed concert amphitheater and a multi-use indoor field? An amphitheater of that size could cost that much just by itself, and it's something we've been missing for 20 years. Whether rich guys stand to benefit or not, amenities like those are important.

So is infrastructure, education, health and the like.  The problem here is the reality which is that the funding is for capital improvements  which limits their use.  However it does not limit discussion about what capital improvements should be made with those funds.  We don't need another practice field in the core.  There is nothing that says that an amphitheater must be connected to Everbank stadium either.  It may be time to revisit how bed tax moneys are used and how that might change. But expecting everyone to rubber stamp this idea because the Mayor and Khan like it is not the measure to use for an expenditure like this. 

[Jax-Nole]

Do any of you realize that the money from the bed tax will be collected regardless of if Khan is the owner and wants to use some. It's not like this is a tax increase. You all seem to want to crucify Khan for suggesting to use tax dollars, yet no one points out the fact that there is not a single other person in the city that is willing to put down that much of their own money towards making downtown a better place ($60 million in 3 years). I don't care if you don't trust his motives. At least he is trying to get things done. I agree that $25 million for an amphitheater is a steep price for a stage, seats, and a fancy roof, but if that is price it takes to have a nice amphitheater, then fine. I'm sick of seeing bands that I want to see go to St. Augustine instead because (this is just a guess) the Arena is too large. At least this is a medium size venue that is guaranteed to bring people downtown.Most of us aren't even paying for it, unless you live in a hotel in town or something.

[Jax-Nole]

Also, does this leave the current practice fields open for redevelopment? I personally would like to see a soccer stadium built for the Armada if the area is big enough and they are abandoning the fields. It seems a bit cramped in the baseball grounds, and a lot of extra work to convert the field each time they play and avoiding scheduling conflicts when making the schedules for the year.

[edjax]

I saw an article from 1998 when there was discussion of updating the current amphitheater at MetroPark and back in 1998 the price was estimated at 20 million, nearly 20 years ago.

[edjax]

Some of the regulars on this board . . . I mean, damn. Like CG7, it's hard to see this as something other than a win-win. And, it solves the Metropolitan Park problem.

Believe it or not, this project seriously helps the urban core -- it's going to bring some real life to downtown on a much more regular basis. The practice facility is going to have utility far beyond a practice space for the Jags.

Take a step back; give the bitching and moaning a break.

Then why don't you and your Jaguar-loving buddies pay for the fucking thing and not saddle everyone else with the bill.

See, this exact argument is made against all forms of cultural spending. Generally, the amount particular individuals pay isn't a whole lot.

You're right. But in this case, we're talking about using the public purse to finance a very profitable business owned by a billionaire. We're not talking about schools, roads, libraries, museums or trains.

Maybe the individual cost isn't very high, but the principle of the matter is what is at stake. Especially when we are having problems funding those other, far more important, things.

As far as that goes, this doesn't appear to be another expense just for the stadium (like big scoreboards) Leaving the actual stadium improvements aside, is $45 million an imprudent cost for a badly needed concert amphitheater and a multi-use indoor field? An amphitheater of that size could cost that much just by itself, and it's something we've been missing for 20 years. Whether rich guys stand to benefit or not, amenities like those are important.

So is infrastructure, education, health and the like.  The problem here is the reality which is that the funding is for capital improvements  which limits their use.  However it does not limit discussion about what capital improvements should be made with those funds.  We don't need another practice field in the core.  There is nothing that says that an amphitheater must be connected to Everbank stadium either.  It may be time to revisit how bed tax moneys are used and how that might change. But expecting everyone to rubber stamp this idea because the Mayor and Khan like it is not the measure to use for an expenditure like this.

Isn't what the Tourist Development Tax (bed tax) can be used for limited by state legislation??

[Cheshire Cat]

Do any of you realize that the money from the bed tax will be collected regardless of if Khan is the owner and wants to use some. It's not like this is a tax increase. You all seem to want to crucify Khan for suggesting to use tax dollars, yet no one points out the fact that there is not a single other person in the city that is willing to put down that much of their own money towards making downtown a better place ($60 million in 3 years). I don't care if you don't trust his motives. At least he is trying to get things done. I agree that $25 million for an amphitheater is a steep price for a stage, seats, and a fancy roof, but if that is price it takes to have a nice amphitheater, then fine. I'm sick of seeing bands that I want to see go to St. Augustine instead because (this is just a guess) the Arena is too large. At least this is a medium size venue that is guaranteed to bring people downtown.Most of us aren't even paying for it, unless you live in a hotel in town or something.

To question the motives of any developer or business entity when it comes to the use of "tax dollars" is not tantamount to crucifying them.  While the word play is dramatic it does not represent truth at any level.  Jacksonville and it's leadership is in many ways not as sophisticated and unaffected by money and power as they should be when talking mega millions on a single project.  Reason goes out the window and is replace with dramatic pleas and promises.  Our overblown courthouse is a prime example.  The money under discussion is for capital improvement projects.  There should always be discussion and debate over the best use of tax money in our city.

[Cheshire Cat]

Do any of you realize that the money from the bed tax will be collected regardless of if Khan is the owner and wants to use some. It's not like this is a tax increase. You all seem to want to crucify Khan for suggesting to use tax dollars, yet no one points out the fact that there is not a single other person in the city that is willing to put down that much of their own money towards making downtown a better place ($60 million in 3 years). I don't care if you don't trust his motives. At least he is trying to get things done. I agree that $25 million for an amphitheater is a steep price for a stage, seats, and a fancy roof, but if that is price it takes to have a nice amphitheater, then fine. I'm sick of seeing bands that I want to see go to St. Augustine instead because (this is just a guess) the Arena is too large. At least this is a medium size venue that is guaranteed to bring people downtown.Most of us aren't even paying for it, unless you live in a hotel in town or something.

To question the motives of any developer or business entity when it comes to the use of "tax dollars" is not tantamount to crucifying them.  While the word play is dramatic it does not represent truth at any level.  Jacksonville and it's leadership is in many ways not as sophisticated and unaffected by money and power as they should be when talking mega millions on a single project.  Reason goes out the window and is replace with dramatic pleas and promises.  Our overblown courthouse is a prime example.  The money under discussion is for capital improvement projects.  There should always be discussion and debate over the best use of tax money in our city.

Amen.

Its so bizarre that not giving wealthy people tax money for their profitable ventures is considered being anti (insert name).

Absolutely agree. 

[spuwho]

[Cheshire Cat]

So what are the parameters of Capital improvements in Jacksonville and what qualifies?   You may be surprised.  Certainly there are some important and necessary items on this list.  For all the information, click the link at the bottom of this post. 

Again, what is the best use of this funding?  Money to parks has been cut over the years, many facilities are lacking.  Drainage issues in our poorest neighborhoods still have not been resolved along with flooding issues throughout Jacksonville. Public Safety structure.  Has anyone been inside the Police Memorial building lately? How about the jail where sewage regularly backs up into the courtrooms and low lying areas? The main JSO hub downtown is well beyond it's life span with some areas that are absolutely run down. Road, Infrastructure, transportation  etc.  Hello Jacksonville, what are our need as opposed to wants?  We need to make better decisions for the health of this city and think like adults and not sports fans.  Amenities are nice, but addressing infrastructure, and most of the items above are more important because they directly impact the safety of our citizens and community.  Some of this money to repair the failing infrastructure on liberty street would be a competent use.   

Identifying Projects
Departments complete a CIP request form with information above and use a standardized matrix to score projects prior to submitting them to the Finance Department. To assist in balancing and prioritizing needs across the City, departments further identify projects by one of the following 'Program Areas'

Drainage - Project that improves drainage conditions and reduces flooding.
Environment/Quality of Life - Project that would promote or improve the environment for the citizens of Jacksonville (e.g. water treatment plants).
Government Facilities – Project designated as government facilities with primarily employee occupancy.
Parks - Project with buildings, grounds and/or recreational facilities within the park boundaries, also including the Preservation Project.
Public Facilities – Project for facilities designated for primarily citizen use and include facilities such as the county courthouse, arena, and baseball park.
Public Safety - Project relating to public safety including facilities.
Roads/Infrastructure/Transportation – Project dedicated to expanding and widening roads; interchanges, overpasses and intersection improvements; and also includes: Road resurfacing,
Sidewalks/bike paths, along with landscaping/tree planting along road improvement projects.
Targeted Economic Development – Project is used to stimulate growth and revitalization by providing grants and loans for infrastructure, public improvements, and project development.

http://www.coj.net/departments/finance/budget/capital-improvement-plans.aspx

[edjax]

So what are the parameters of Capital improvements in Jacksonville and what qualifies?   You may be surprised.  Certainly there are some important and necessary items on this list.  For all the information, click the link at the bottom of this post. 

Again, what is the best use of this funding?  Money to parks has been cut over the years, many facilities are lacking.  Drainage issues in our poorest neighborhoods still have not been resolved along with flooding issues throughout Jacksonville. Public Safety structure.  Has anyone been inside the Police Memorial building lately. How about the jail where sewage regularly backs up into the courtrooms and low lying areas? The main JSO hub downtown is well beyond it's life span with some areas that are absolutely run down. Road, Infrastructure, transportation  etc.  Hello Jacksonville what are our need as opposed to wants?  We need to make better decisions for the health of this city.

Identifying Projects
Departments complete a CIP request form with information above and use a standardized matrix to score projects prior to submitting them to the Finance Department. To assist in balancing and prioritizing needs across the City, departments further identify projects by one of the following 'Program Areas'

Drainage - Project that improves drainage conditions and reduces flooding.
Environment/Quality of Life - Project that would promote or improve the environment for the citizens of Jacksonville (e.g. water treatment plants).
Government Facilities – Project designated as government facilities with primarily employee occupancy.
Parks - Project with buildings, grounds and/or recreational facilities within the park boundaries, also including the Preservation Project.
Public Facilities – Project for facilities designated for primarily citizen use and include facilities such as the county courthouse, arena, and baseball park.
Public Safety - Project relating to public safety including facilities.
Roads/Infrastructure/Transportation – Project dedicated to expanding and widening roads; interchanges, overpasses and intersection improvements; and also includes: Road resurfacing,
Sidewalks/bike paths, along with landscaping/tree planting along road improvement projects.
Targeted Economic Development – Project is used to stimulate growth and revitalization by providing grants and loans for infrastructure, public improvements, and project development.

http://www.coj.net/departments/finance/budget/capital-improvement-plans.aspx

Which items on this list can the bed tax legally be used on?