Six awe-inspiring Jax skyscrapers never built

[Ocklawaha]

Some wiseguy will 'hilariously' say "With our history, most of those buildings would've been torn down anyway" blah blah blah...

Now that's out of the way, and no one has to say it...

I'm not necessarily anti-Riverwatch far as the building itself, but I thought that the proposed location was horribly clashing with the skyline.

dumb.  you are literally the only one who would say it.

+++100

Agree Stephen, imagine having a sea of Berkman II projects dotting the skyline, that or having a sea of empty skyscrapers complete with plywood over the entries and homeless camps by the fire escape. This is a rare case of Jacksonville's lethargic reaction to market forces serving us well.

[CCMjax]

The more I've thought about it, one way people could change that view and turn other projects (Landing, Barnett, Laura St Trio, etc) into the most important for DT Jax is to make them part of a single redevelopment plan. I'm not saying they all need to be done by the same developer, but someone should try coming up with a plan that can be sold to the powers-that-be as a single project where money could be thrown for a big impact. From eyeballing a map, the area between the Landing and Hemming Park looks smaller than the Shipyards so it shouldn't be seen as something too big to achieve. Put a group of interested parties together, come up with a plan that can generate some excitement, and start lobbying the city.

As long as these projects are coming to the city individually looking for money, they look like smaller-scale, lower-impact projects. Of course, as you've pointed out before, the entire Shipyards site won't be developed all at once or in a short period of time. But the Shipyards wins the argument for many people because it's presented as a single project while the others out there are out on their own.

How do you know somebody isn't doing this already? Somebody trying to be a master developer? 

I hear there's a $3 million study for it. 

[vicupstate]

Some wiseguy will 'hilariously' say "With our history, most of those buildings would've been torn down anyway" blah blah blah...

Now that's out of the way, and no one has to say it...

I'm not necessarily anti-Riverwatch far as the building itself, but I thought that the proposed location was horribly clashing with the skyline.

dumb.  you are literally the only one who would say it.

+++100

Agree Stephen, imagine having a sea of Berkman II projects dotting the skyline, that or having a sea of empty skyscrapers complete with plywood over the entries and homeless camps by the fire escape. This is a rare case of Jacksonville's lethargic reaction to market forces serving us well.

I disagree. The reason the Berkman 2 situation occurred is because the garage collapsed. As long as Riverwatch had been completed, it would have been filled.  There is no money in a building being boarded up, so eventually it would be occupied, even if the rents are lower than planned and someone lost their shirt along the way.   

[I-10east]

dumb.  you are literally the only one who would say it.

U mad bro??

[ProjectMaximus]

The more I've thought about it, one way people could change that view and turn other projects (Landing, Barnett, Laura St Trio, etc) into the most important for DT Jax is to make them part of a single redevelopment plan. I'm not saying they all need to be done by the same developer, but someone should try coming up with a plan that can be sold to the powers-that-be as a single project where money could be thrown for a big impact. From eyeballing a map, the area between the Landing and Hemming Park looks smaller than the Shipyards so it shouldn't be seen as something too big to achieve. Put a group of interested parties together, come up with a plan that can generate some excitement, and start lobbying the city.

As long as these projects are coming to the city individually looking for money, they look like smaller-scale, lower-impact projects. Of course, as you've pointed out before, the entire Shipyards site won't be developed all at once or in a short period of time. But the Shipyards wins the argument for many people because it's presented as a single project while the others out there are out on their own.

How do you know somebody isn't doing this already? Somebody trying to be a master developer? 

I hear there's a $3 million study for it. 

Lol. Seriously though, I was hinting at the fact that there WAS and maybe still IS somebody attempting this. I guess they did not make their plans public, per se, at least certainly not the way Khan did with the Shipyards.

[thelakelander]

Some wiseguy will 'hilariously' say "With our history, most of those buildings would've been torn down anyway" blah blah blah...

Now that's out of the way, and no one has to say it...

I'm not necessarily anti-Riverwatch far as the building itself, but I thought that the proposed location was horribly clashing with the skyline.

dumb.  you are literally the only one who would say it.

+++100

Agree Stephen, imagine having a sea of Berkman II projects dotting the skyline, that or having a sea of empty skyscrapers complete with plywood over the entries and homeless camps by the fire escape. This is a rare case of Jacksonville's lethargic reaction to market forces serving us well.

I disagree. The reason the Berkman 2 situation occurred is because the garage collapsed. As long as Riverwatch had been completed, it would have been filled.  There is no money in a building being boarded up, so eventually it would be occupied, even if the rents are lower than planned and someone lost their shirt along the way.   

The cranes lining Miami's rapidly growing skyline back this position.  That place got hit way harder than we did during the recession. Many lost their shirts. However, the buildings didn't sit empty long. Depressed values created opportunity for a new crop of investors and downtown residents. Now the buildings are filled, downtown has thousands of new residents, new retail is opening and the cranes are back.

[simms3]

Jax is one of those cities that does run the risk of Berkman IIs dotting the landscape.  Sometimes it makes sense to fold.  And it happens relatively rarely).  Berkman II case has been sold, Choate, the contractor, was found with absolutely no fault in garage collapse and took title out of foreclosure for $100.  This was years ago.  The collapse itself was 8 years ago.  In Miami, there would be a 50-70 story rebuilt there by now.  It didn't take this long to put up a memorial and several towers on the 9/11 site.

But this is Jacksonville.

I'm personally glad some of these towers never started construction.

[thelakelander]

It didn't take this long to put up a memorial and several towers on the 9/11 site.

Ouch! That hurts....especially because it's true!

[mtraininjax]

Soon you can add Khan's Shipyard Dream Sim City to this list of things that never got built.

I honestly believe that the Shipyards will get done with Khan, as he has said all along, he wants to have more revenue come from more than just the stadium. The areas around the stadium are ripe for development and the river is the city's crown jewel. For downtown to succeed on any level, it will need this as a game changer. I think the future of downtown depends on this, to turn the ground swell of people flocking in and around Town Center, which has all kinds of land available for growth in the Skinner Farm properties (east of I-295).

[vicupstate]

Soon you can add Khan's Shipyard Dream Sim City to this list of things that never got built.

I honestly believe that the Shipyards will get done with Khan, as he has said all along, he wants to have more revenue come from more than just the stadium. The areas around the stadium are ripe for development and the river is the city's crown jewel. For downtown to succeed on any level, it will need this as a game changer. I think the future of downtown depends on this, to turn the ground swell of people flocking in and around Town Center, which has all kinds of land available for growth in the Skinner Farm properties (east of I-295).

It is this attitude that will hold DT back for another 10+ years, if the local leadership buys into it. Khan's plans are even more unrealistic than the pre-crash grandiose projects and the demand for the product is far less than even then.

Create a unique atmosphere and offerings based on the Ron Chamblin's and Sweet Pete's of the area, and you might actually achieve something great. Hand over the keys to the treasury to Khan and you will have more unfulfilled promises.

You have to crawl before you walk and JAX is not even crawling at the moment.

[Gunnar]

Soon you can add Khan's Shipyard Dream Sim City to this list of things that never got built.

I honestly believe that the Shipyards will get done with Khan, as he has said all along, he wants to have more revenue come from more than just the stadium. The areas around the stadium are ripe for development and the river is the city's crown jewel. For downtown to succeed on any level, it will need this as a game changer. I think the future of downtown depends on this, to turn the ground swell of people flocking in and around Town Center, which has all kinds of land available for growth in the Skinner Farm properties (east of I-295).

It is this attitude that will hold DT back for another 10+ years, if the local leadership buys into it. Khan's plans are even more unrealistic than the pre-crash grandiose projects and the demand for the product is far less than even then.

Create a unique atmosphere and offerings based on the Ron Chamblin's and Sweet Pete's of the area, and you might actually achieve something great. Hand over the keys to the treasury to Khan and you will have more unfulfilled promises.

You have to crawl before you walk and JAX is not even crawling at the moment.

+1

It's the various little places that will make DR more interesting - shop by shop, apartment by apartment, building by building. Once you have reached a certain level, there will be a lot more momentum for bigger projects. The down side to this is that the availability of cheap existing (empty / underused) buildings helps this process, which is somewhat of an issue due to the demolition mania in Jax, but there is (still) some building stock left.

If, on the other hand, there aren't all these little places, i.e. nothing that makes dt interesting / stand out, planning a new large development is more or less akin to planning it anywhere else, and in this case DT will lose out to the Beaches, Town Center...

That brings us back to the question - why do it in downtown over any other place in the area, or even why invest in a big project in DT Jacksonville when you could also be investing in Tampa, Orlando....

[mtraininjax]

It is this attitude that will hold DT back for another 10+ years, if the local leadership buys into it. Khan's plans are even more unrealistic than the pre-crash grandiose projects and the demand for the product is far less than even then.

Create a unique atmosphere and offerings based on the Ron Chamblin's and Sweet Pete's of the area, and you might actually achieve something great. Hand over the keys to the treasury to Khan and you will have more unfulfilled promises.

You have to crawl before you walk and JAX is not even crawling at the moment.

Its called Compromise. Even the Landing's first revision was shot down, as many people and government agencies compromise with their ideas of what they want the area on the river to look like for the next generation. Khan has endless pockets and he can afford to think big, at the end of the spectrum than the City cannot afford.

The Shipyards sit dead and empty, doing nothing, while a choice, does NOTHING to help fill the city finances. Its a risk, but then so is getting in your car to cross the river these days. Doing nothing is not a choice here for the Shipyards or for the city.

Sweet Pete's and Chambin and Hemming, while nice places for people to visit, are not game changers like what Khan or Sleiman can deliver.

[thelakelander]

We're screwed if our downtown revitalization strategies boil down to hoping Khan and Sleiman will become our sugar daddies.

[Captain Zissou]

It is this attitude that will hold DT back for another 10+ years, if the local leadership buys into it. Khan's plans are even more unrealistic than the pre-crash grandiose projects and the demand for the product is far less than even then.

Create a unique atmosphere and offerings based on the Ron Chamblin's and Sweet Pete's of the area, and you might actually achieve something great. Hand over the keys to the treasury to Khan and you will have more unfulfilled promises.

You have to crawl before you walk and JAX is not even crawling at the moment.

Its called Compromise. Even the Landing's first revision was shot down, as many people and government agencies compromise with their ideas of what they want the area on the river to look like for the next generation. Khan has endless pockets and he can afford to think big, at the end of the spectrum than the City cannot afford.

The Shipyards sit dead and empty, doing nothing, while a choice, does NOTHING to help fill the city finances. Its a risk, but then so is getting in your car to cross the river these days. Doing nothing is not a choice here for the Shipyards or for the city.

Sweet Pete's and Chambin and Hemming, while nice places for people to visit, are not game changers like what Khan or Sleiman can deliver.

To pregame for the Jag game, everybody take a drink when mtrain says "game changer".

I think the demand is building in DT, but it's not at the point where big money will see a great ROI.  San Marco and Riverside are very hot markets, but are getting more expensive.  I think the recently proposed project on the Crawdaddy's site will do well, but I don't know if the demand is there for something on the scale of healthy town (and definitely not the shipyards).  As density builds on the perimeter of downtown, it will create more of a market for retail and entertainment in the core.  Then you'll see more people willing to put up with the BS parts of downtown to enjoy the culture and quality of life aspects.  At that point there will be demand for more projects like Berkman, etc...

[vicupstate]

Even when DT was in it's heyday in the 1950's and '60's, it was not the Shipyards land area (which was literally a Shipyard then) that was the economic powerhouse for DT.  As for the Landing that area was a parking lot back then.

The department stores and all the small stores and offices then were centered around Hemming Plaza. There is no reason that can't be the epicenter of the revival of DT too. 

Leaving the Shipyards as is, is not only an option, I would argue it is the best option for now.