Avondale Property Owners Attempt to Close Public River Access

[SunKing]

I also live in the area.  Simply put it is not a park but a ROW easement over private land that is not being maintained.  I never see people fishing there mostly because it is not very accessible and nasty.  There is a lot of drug activity, dead animals, trash, etc.  The neighborhood has been complaining about the situation for years to Jim Love.

SunKing the reason you didn't like my other comment is your part of the problem? The people that own houses in this neighborhood are mostly white & have money. And they don't like to see anybody that is different unless that person is mowing their lawn. Or cleaning their house under the table? So what the city of Jacksonville should do is clean up this area. for I wouldn't want to walk to the river past all the over growth, trash, drug activity, dead animals, people turning tricks etc etc etc myself!

And SunKing did you even read what Ron Littlepage said? http://jacksonville.com/opinion/ron-littlepage/2015-05-26/story/ron-littlepage-fight-brewing-over-attempt-close-river-access He is spot on. 

What is sad is your attempt to make this a case of haves or have nots.  The neighborhood has been trying to have the city clean this up for DECADES.  Nobody cared until the adjoining property owners decided to actually take care of it on their own dime.  Latest escapade on ROW- two people having sex in the back of their car at 9:30 AM last Tuesday.  If the city can't control it why should everyone else have to put up with it?

And drop the class warfare theme.  Avondale was an extremely diverse neighborhood last time I checked.

SunKing I'm still part of the haves. But before this story hit Metrojacksonville? These wealth home owners almost got their land without a fight. So for this I'm glad for MetroJacksonville and this forum. And SunKing the reason no one in your area at first did anything. Is because people like yourself or cheap. You bitch & moan about your taxes boo hoo. But I'm getting off the subject at hand. In closing SunKing if the have not's don't voice their Opinion. Then you so called haves would have Avondale closed off and gated!

Great argument sir, see my earlier post.

[The_Choose_1]

I also live in the area.  Simply put it is not a park but a ROW easement over private land that is not being maintained.  I never see people fishing there mostly because it is not very accessible and nasty.  There is a lot of drug activity, dead animals, trash, etc.  The neighborhood has been complaining about the situation for years to Jim Love.

SunKing the reason you didn't like my other comment is your part of the problem? The people that own houses in this neighborhood are mostly white & have money. And they don't like to see anybody that is different unless that person is mowing their lawn. Or cleaning their house under the table? So what the city of Jacksonville should do is clean up this area. for I wouldn't want to walk to the river past all the over growth, trash, drug activity, dead animals, people turning tricks etc etc etc myself!

And SunKing did you even read what Ron Littlepage said? http://jacksonville.com/opinion/ron-littlepage/2015-05-26/story/ron-littlepage-fight-brewing-over-attempt-close-river-access He is spot on. 

What is sad is your attempt to make this a case of haves or have nots.  The neighborhood has been trying to have the city clean this up for DECADES.  Nobody cared until the adjoining property owners decided to actually take care of it on their own dime.  Latest escapade on ROW- two people having sex in the back of their car at 9:30 AM last Tuesday.  If the city can't control it why should everyone else have to put up with it?

And drop the class warfare theme.  Avondale was an extremely diverse neighborhood last time I checked.

SunKing I'm still part of the haves. But before this story hit Metrojacksonville? These wealth home owners almost got their land without a fight. So for this I'm glad for MetroJacksonville and this forum. And SunKing the reason no one in your area at first did anything. Is because people like yourself or cheap. You bitch & moan about your taxes boo hoo. But I'm getting off the subject at hand. In closing SunKing if the have not's don't voice their Opinion. Then you so called haves would have Avondale closed off and gated!

Great argument sir, see my earlier post.

I drove over to this little park or public access to the St Johns River. I also saw the mostly empty riverfront lot next to this park. That has an outdoor staircase? I looked around at all the Millionaire Dollar homes. Now it's a lot cleaner then the photo I saw on Google back in May 2015. I walked all the way down to the river boy what a view. I saw two large JEA sewer covers and one pipe that was open and tapped off. I took my photos of the park. I like the size of this park. I should be kept as a park I would like to see a stone or concrete walk way from the street all the way to the river with a lot of grass for the people of Jacksonville to enjoy walking their animals. And clean up after them. Their was a sign at the beginning of the road in front of the park. I saw the NOTICE City of Jacksonville Real Estate Division sign 255-8700.

[The_Choose_1]

I was surprised to see this St Johns river access at Talbot Ave to still in bad shape as it is in this May 2015 view. https://goo.gl/maps/wLKCm

And here at Van Wert Avenue https://goo.gl/maps/NbWKi street view as of Fed 2015 it looked bad. Today July 26th 2015 The elephant ears have been cut back but they're coming back up. and you can see grass it would be such a shame for the Jacksonville real estate division to sell this property to a private owner. I Hope we Fight this to keep this open for all. Even for the local neighbors that walk their dogs or don't live on the St Johns River.

Look at this Public Access at 1895 Challen Ave May 2015 https://goo.gl/maps/6L9S4 this is what needs to happen to Van Wert Avenue.

And another park at 1840 Elizabeth Pl. June 2015 https://goo.gl/maps/bZaKo

[The_Choose_1]

http://www.coj.net/departments/public-works/real-estate/right-of-way-and-easement-closure-information.aspx


Right of Way and Easement Closure Information

Individuals desiring to close and abandon, or have the city disclaim all or a portion of any street, alley or easement, must fill out the Closure Application requesting the Real Estate Division to investigate the feasibility of closing or disclaiming the street, alley or easement. The completed application and the requested information should be submitted to:

Department of Public Works
Real Estate Division
214 N. Hogan Street, 10th floor
Jacksonville, FL 32202

Should you have any questions concerning the application, you may contact the Real Estate Division at (904) 255-8700.

[Know Growth]

If the city can't control it why should everyone else have to put up with it?

We'd lose a lot more than this small public space if this theory was applied citywide. What will it take for the city to take care of its property?  Not just in Avondale but Moncrief, New Town, the Eastside and the rest of the entire city? IMO, these are questions we should be looking for answers too, moreso than worrying about where to find the extra hundreds of millions for new projects like the Shipyards and dredging the river.

Outstanding outlook Lakelander.

Folks complain about "River Access",but then what? What measures are to be undertaken to accommodate and expand meaningful River "Access"?

Reminds me of the Avondale Overlay proceedings; Citizen participants overwhelmingly lodged "Vision" for public park and river access at the Commander Apartments / Loop property at Herschel street,St Johns Avenue and Fishweir Creek.
Fairly recently,during yet another round of land use/zone request for the property (St Johns Village),Dr. Wayne Wood noted that the "highest and best use" of the property would be a public park designation.
No doubt (?) the public purchase, and transformation of the property to public waterway access and related Park is sure to be deemed unreasonable. Self fulfilling cycle.

[MEGATRON]

SunKing I'm still part of the haves. But before this story hit Metrojacksonville? These wealth home owners almost got their land without a fight. So for this I'm glad for MetroJacksonville and this forum. And SunKing the reason no one in your area at first did anything. Is because people like yourself or cheap. You bitch & moan about your taxes boo hoo. But I'm getting off the subject at hand. In closing SunKing if the have not's don't voice their Opinion. Then you so called haves would have Avondale closed off and gated!

Sorry, I've been reading your drivel the past few days and can no longer bite my tongue (or stop my fingers).  First, the opposition to the issue did not start from MJ.  MJ has some fantastic content and many of these issues are hashed out over the board, at varying levels of competence, but the opposition to the ROW started when the public hearing sign was first placed in front of the ROW.

Second, no one in the area did anything?  Nonsense.  The folks that previously owned the lot now owned by the Surfaces kept care of this area for decades.  When she passed away, the Cousars took care of it for many years.  My neighbors have been begging the City to clean up the ROW for years and for JSO to increase patrols.  That is not being cheap - that's geting fed up with children finding human feces and needles on property in their neighborhood.

Truth be told, even after the ROW was cleared, very few folks utilize the ROW.  Within two years of this controversy, it will go back to being an overgrown, nasty property where nothing good happens,  That's a shame.

[The_Choose_1]

SunKing I'm still part of the haves. But before this story hit Metrojacksonville? These wealth home owners almost got their land without a fight. So for this I'm glad for MetroJacksonville and this forum. And SunKing the reason no one in your area at first did anything. Is because people like yourself or cheap. You bitch & moan about your taxes boo hoo. But I'm getting off the subject at hand. In closing SunKing if the have not's don't voice their Opinion. Then you so called haves would have Avondale closed off and gated!

Sorry, I've been reading your drivel the past few days and can no longer bite my tongue (or stop my fingers).  First, the opposition to the issue did not start from MJ.  MJ has some fantastic content and many of these issues are hashed out over the board, at varying levels of competence, but the opposition to the ROW started when the public hearing sign was first placed in front of the ROW.

Second, no one in the area did anything?  Nonsense.  The folks that previously owned the lot now owned by the Surfaces kept care of this area for decades.  When she passed away, the Cousars took care of it for many years.  My neighbors have been begging the City to clean up the ROW for years and for JSO to increase patrols.  That is not being cheap - that's geting fed up with children finding human feces and needles on property in their neighborhood.

Truth be told, even after the ROW was cleared, very few folks utilize the ROW.  Within two years of this controversy, it will go back to being an overgrown, nasty property where nothing good happens,  That's a shame.

Councilman Clark (District 3) has sponsored legislation (215-360) that would close public river access at Richmond St. & Little Van Wert in Avondale (District 14) at the request of the two adjacent property owners. The property would revert to the property owners (reserving a JEA right-of-way).

Section 3 of the proposed legislation waives Ordinance Section 744.104, which requires that the applicant seeking closure of public access convey comparable property providing comparable access as a condition of closure in addition to administrative review by COJ Public Works.

It appears (according to the legislation) that both the COJ Parks and Planning departments have objected to the street closure. This is the first I heard about this piece of property. Megatron I'm so pleased you and others took care of this lot if that really is the case? You attack me because the SunKing had no real agreement. And the city of Jacksonville and the JSO have more serious problems to deal with. So now you and the other Avondale neighbors want this right of way to be sold to take care of a problem you say of Human waste and needles. I hope you loss it looks as the JEA and others don't want to give this up. I walked the property and took photos. This is a rather large piece of land. It sure would be a shame for the city to sell it just so you and your neighbors of Avondale can wash their hands and feel like you have solved a great mess. When really all you have done is screwed everybody else out of another right away to the river. Why should people in the other cheaper area's of Avondale be forced to drive or walk to have a good River Access? I believe the reason this area was left to overgrown was so you and others could say. See what happens here we need this closed off. You say you cleaned this area a lot I find this to be a lie. Here is a photo from google on May 15th 2015 https://goo.gl/maps/BikKy this wasn't cleaned at this point now was it? and Thank God for Google Maps for they also show what this area looked like since Nov 2007, March 2011, Feb 2015 & May 2015.Yes it looks better today look at my Avatar much cleaner but it needs more work done to it. I took this photo from the river looking back towards Van Wert Ave.

[SunKing]

SunKing I'm still part of the haves. But before this story hit Metrojacksonville? These wealth home owners almost got their land without a fight. So for this I'm glad for MetroJacksonville and this forum. And SunKing the reason no one in your area at first did anything. Is because people like yourself or cheap. You bitch & moan about your taxes boo hoo. But I'm getting off the subject at hand. In closing SunKing if the have not's don't voice their Opinion. Then you so called haves would have Avondale closed off and gated!

Sorry, I've been reading your drivel the past few days and can no longer bite my tongue (or stop my fingers).  First, the opposition to the issue did not start from MJ.  MJ has some fantastic content and many of these issues are hashed out over the board, at varying levels of competence, but the opposition to the ROW started when the public hearing sign was first placed in front of the ROW.

Second, no one in the area did anything?  Nonsense.  The folks that previously owned the lot now owned by the Surfaces kept care of this area for decades.  When she passed away, the Cousars took care of it for many years.  My neighbors have been begging the City to clean up the ROW for years and for JSO to increase patrols.  That is not being cheap - that's geting fed up with children finding human feces and needles on property in their neighborhood.

Truth be told, even after the ROW was cleared, very few folks utilize the ROW.  Within two years of this controversy, it will go back to being an overgrown, nasty property where nothing good happens,  That's a shame.

Councilman Clark (District 3) has sponsored legislation (215-360) that would close public river access at Richmond St. & Little Van Wert in Avondale (District 14) at the request of the two adjacent property owners. The property would revert to the property owners (reserving a JEA right-of-way).

Section 3 of the proposed legislation waives Ordinance Section 744.104, which requires that the applicant seeking closure of public access convey comparable property providing comparable access as a condition of closure in addition to administrative review by COJ Public Works.

It appears (according to the legislation) that both the COJ Parks and Planning departments have objected to the street closure. This is the first I heard about this piece of property. Megatron I'm so pleased you and others took care of this lot if that really is the case? You attack me because the SunKing had no real agreement. And the city of Jacksonville and the JSO have more serious problems to deal with. So now you and the other Avondale neighbors want this right of way to be sold to take care of a problem you say of Human waste and needles. I hope you loss it looks as the JEA and others don't want to give this up. I walked the property and took photos. This is a rather large piece of land. It sure would be a shame for the city to sell it just so you and your neighbors of Avondale can wash their hands and feel like you have solved a great mess. When really all you have done is screwed everybody else out of another right away to the river. Why should people in the other cheaper area's of Avondale be forced to drive or walk to have a good River Access? I believe the reason this area was left to overgrown was so you and others could say. See what happens here we need this closed off. You say you cleaned this area a lot I find this to be a lie. Here is a photo from google on May 15th 2015 https://goo.gl/maps/BikKy this wasn't cleaned at this point now was it? and Thank God for Google Maps for they also show what this area looked like since Nov 2007, March 2011, Feb 2015 & May 2015.Yes it looks better today look at my Avatar much cleaner but it needs more work done to it. I took this photo from the river looking back towards Van Wert Ave.

Its nice to see that you get out of your parent's basement every now and then for some fresh air.

[MEGATRON]

SunKing I'm still part of the haves. But before this story hit Metrojacksonville? These wealth home owners almost got their land without a fight. So for this I'm glad for MetroJacksonville and this forum. And SunKing the reason no one in your area at first did anything. Is because people like yourself or cheap. You bitch & moan about your taxes boo hoo. But I'm getting off the subject at hand. In closing SunKing if the have not's don't voice their Opinion. Then you so called haves would have Avondale closed off and gated!

Sorry, I've been reading your drivel the past few days and can no longer bite my tongue (or stop my fingers).  First, the opposition to the issue did not start from MJ.  MJ has some fantastic content and many of these issues are hashed out over the board, at varying levels of competence, but the opposition to the ROW started when the public hearing sign was first placed in front of the ROW.

Second, no one in the area did anything?  Nonsense.  The folks that previously owned the lot now owned by the Surfaces kept care of this area for decades.  When she passed away, the Cousars took care of it for many years.  My neighbors have been begging the City to clean up the ROW for years and for JSO to increase patrols.  That is not being cheap - that's geting fed up with children finding human feces and needles on property in their neighborhood.

Truth be told, even after the ROW was cleared, very few folks utilize the ROW.  Within two years of this controversy, it will go back to being an overgrown, nasty property where nothing good happens,  That's a shame.

Councilman Clark (District 3) has sponsored legislation (215-360) that would close public river access at Richmond St. & Little Van Wert in Avondale (District 14) at the request of the two adjacent property owners. The property would revert to the property owners (reserving a JEA right-of-way).

Section 3 of the proposed legislation waives Ordinance Section 744.104, which requires that the applicant seeking closure of public access convey comparable property providing comparable access as a condition of closure in addition to administrative review by COJ Public Works.

It appears (according to the legislation) that both the COJ Parks and Planning departments have objected to the street closure. This is the first I heard about this piece of property. Megatron I'm so pleased you and others took care of this lot if that really is the case? You attack me because the SunKing had no real agreement. And the city of Jacksonville and the JSO have more serious problems to deal with. So now you and the other Avondale neighbors want this right of way to be sold to take care of a problem you say of Human waste and needles. I hope you loss it looks as the JEA and others don't want to give this up. I walked the property and took photos. This is a rather large piece of land. It sure would be a shame for the city to sell it just so you and your neighbors of Avondale can wash their hands and feel like you have solved a great mess. When really all you have done is screwed everybody else out of another right away to the river. Why should people in the other cheaper area's of Avondale be forced to drive or walk to have a good River Access? I believe the reason this area was left to overgrown was so you and others could say. See what happens here we need this closed off. You say you cleaned this area a lot I find this to be a lie. Here is a photo from google on May 15th 2015 https://goo.gl/maps/BikKy this wasn't cleaned at this point now was it? and Thank God for Google Maps for they also show what this area looked like since Nov 2007, March 2011, Feb 2015 & May 2015.Yes it looks better today look at my Avatar much cleaner but it needs more work done to it. I took this photo from the river looking back towards Van Wert Ave.

[camarocane]

So now you and the other Avondale neighbors want this right of way to be sold to take care of a problem you say of Human waste and needles. I hope you loss it looks as the JEA and others don't want to give this up.

Actually the majority of Avondale would like the property to remain open, at least thats what I took away from the council meeting... this also includes RAP.
The property can still be sold with a JEA easement attached, dont think they would care one way or another. Who are the others?

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

2+ months and a few council meetings later, and my first opinion still remains practically unchanged.

If the 'back of envelope' $$$ is $700k and they are willing to pay for the property, then they can have it.  All this johnny-come-lately talk about access has my BS detector going off steadily. 

That said, I'm still 1,000% against giving the land away.

I thought I had typed this in yesterday, but obviously I only thought about typing it and my telekinesis keyboard must still be broken...

Looking at this thing from both sides, I can understand why the homeowners want to 'take over' the property.  After some thought, I'm not against it.  I went by there yesterday, and it really is just, well... nothing.  So on the one hand, my though is if it bothers them so damn much, why not be proactive and clean the area up themselves. 

You know that strip of land between the water-meter and the curb of most everyone's front lawn?  Yeah, that's also PU easement that we maintain all the time with no worries, why should this strip be treated any differently?

On the other hand....

I am, however, completely against allowing them to file some paperwork and basically take the property via  what essentially becomes 'eminent domain'. If they would like to file the paperwork and offer the city fair market value for the little strip of land, then I'd be all for it.

[SunKing]

it seems like this is an attempt at adverse possession, and should be treated as such.

It went before a public council meeting.  How is this adverse possession?

[The_Choose_1]

So now you and the other Avondale neighbors want this right of way to be sold to take care of a problem you say of Human waste and needles. I hope you loss it looks as the JEA and others don't want to give this up.

Actually the majority of Avondale would like the property to remain open, at least thats what I took away from the council meeting... this also includes RAP.
The property can still be sold with a JEA easement attached, dont think they would care one way or another. Who are the others?

I drove by this afternoon and the city was working on this property down at the river? My Avatar shows whats happening today at this piece of property.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

and you think that would disqualify it from being adverse posession how?  Adverse possession requires a legal process.  The arguments justifying this are literally the adverse possession legal standards.

One of the first stipulations to begin acquiring property via this route would be paying the taxes on the property.  Kind of tough to do being that it's city owned and currently carries a zero tax liability. 

Honestly, the best approach would have been for them to clean up the property, fence it in and landscape as part of their yard with a reasonable expectation that they would eventually get called out on it and lose their investment.  But that's a $2,500 gambit that probably would have been more cost effective (and effective overall to their needs) than the process they're going through now.

[SunKing]

So now you and the other Avondale neighbors want this right of way to be sold to take care of a problem you say of Human waste and needles. I hope you loss it looks as the JEA and others don't want to give this up.

Actually the majority of Avondale would like the property to remain open, at least thats what I took away from the council meeting... this also includes RAP.
The property can still be sold with a JEA easement attached, dont think they would care one way or another. Who are the others?

Well if you go buy what megaawatt & sunking say they act as if Avondale want it to be sold.

Actually, I believe a better approach would have been for the city to simply have maintained and policed it.  But if there is no money to do those things (ask your parents about this, they will know), then yes, selling the property and retaining the easement is the next best thing.