A Blast From The Past: 1970s Jacksonville

[fieldafm]

The first link you posted is not even the correct data subset to prove your (incorrect) point. The second link is the block report.

The census expanded the scope of the urbanized area report for Jax between 1960 and 1970 (because the City limits changed), so you have to break down the census tracts (which also changed, there are tables that allow you to trace the boundary changes). Once you do, you clearly see a loss of population withinin the In Town neighborhoods from 1960-2010. Hell, from 2000-2010 Riverside, Avondale, Murray Hill and Ortega has lost close to 10% of its population. Once you started looking at areas like Panama Park, the population decreases are in the 20% range.

You don't even need to do take hours to break down the datasets. A look at aerials shows entire neighborhoods completely wiped out.

lol.  busted.  you actually referenced a census data that you haven't even bothered to read?  that is hilarious.  Good job!  I think you are ready to graduate up to hardy boys status.  lol.

That's actually not what I said whatsoever. I said that you aren't posting links that can prove your (incorrect) assertions. The links you provided don't inlcude the info to accurately compare populations within specific geographic areas. You posted a block report and a report that compares income/racial characteristics.

Companies, like mine, have databases built that compare apples to apples.

I hope that Census Tract 568795 (referred to as Stephen Dare's fantasyland) has increased in population between 1970-present. I didn't bother to read that tract.

[thelakelander]

The urban core (the preconsolidated 30 square-mile city) has lost roughly 100k residents since 1950. We've done a few articles on it.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-oct-the-plight-of-the-urban-core

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-mar-census-2010-urban-jacksonville-in-decline

Neighborhoods like Brooklyn, LaVilla, Sugar Hill/Hansontown, East Jax, etc. are the ones where you'll find some of the largest declines over the last half century.

Some are still in decline. Here's a graphic showing the results between 2000 and 2010 census. The urban core (preconsolidated city) is outlined in red.

[Tacachale]

Lets not unduly romanticize those days.

I don't think the point of the article is to overly romanticize downtown in the 70's, because your point is well taken that 1970's Jacksonville was not the shining urban mecca of the Southeast. But it is important to learn lessons from the past. The three things that jump out to me are:

a) There were a lot more people working downtown at the time

b) There were a lot more people living near downtown at the time. The population in the surrounding In-Town neighborhoods that fed (and still do) downtown had started to decline for sure, but there was still enough density to feed things like the corner grocery stores pictured. The actual 'downtown' population was still less then than what it is today. Its just that the surrounding neighborhoods (what many refer to as the In Town neighborhoods) still were fairly dense.

Tacachale, this is the post that we are discussing. looking at photos from above simply does not tell you which buildings are occupied or how many people live in them.

Field is once again, for reasons known only to himself, indulging in flights of semantic fancy for the sole purpose of challenging any fact set.  Its an interesting conversational tactic, but it doesn't lend itself to a lot of accuracy.

My original point is that the downtown was a pretty fair picture of vibrancy for the era, and that the surrounding neighborhoods had been hollowed out and were in a point of decline to the stage where they weren't all that contributory to the downtown economy.

Downtown was mostly kept vibrant by the 80k plus people working in the central business district.

You remember downtown in the 70s?  Personally?

I wasn't alive in the 70s. But I do know that according to the census, there were more people in most of the Old City neighborhoods in 1970 than there are now. In that article I linked, the downward trend continued as of 2010, except for Downtown, the Southbank, and San Marco, which are growing.

I would agree that Downtown in the 1970s was still benefiting from having a lot more Downtown workers than there are now. But there were also more people living within a few miles of Downtown as well. Either way, it was on a major downswing compared to where it had been in the past. That will change the more we get people living, working and playing in and near Downtown. Some signs are hopeful.

[thelakelander]

According to the census, it appeared things began to fall apart sometime between 1950 and 1960. The city, as a whole, lost 1.6% of it's population that decade. That was after growing 18% during the 40s, 33.6% during the 30s and 58.7% during the 20s. We ended up masking that decline with consolidation.

[thelakelander]

Yeah. The 70s and early 80s were a pretty crappy period for urban areas across the country.

[I-10east]

Also this is kind of mindblowing urban decay.  The Bronx by the 1980s.

https://www.youtube.com/v/xgUsEVwXch0

Too bad all of those torn down buildings in 70's/80's era NY wasn't saved. What a waste...

[finehoe]

But that was pretty much what cities looked like before the ideals of the City Beautiful movement became so embedded into local planning boards that they started changing urban landscapes in the 1980s.

The City Beautiful movement flourished during the 1890s and 1900s.  i know Jacksonville tends to be a bit behind the times, but it's not that bad! 

[Debbie Thompson]

This is the downtown of my teen years and early working years.  It was packed.  The one way streets were gridlocked at rush hour.   In 1971, I worked for Barnett Bank at 100 Laura Street.  On my lunch hour, I'd walk to Hemming Plaza and shop at May Cohen's, Ivey's, Furchgott's, Woolworth's, Lerner Shops, Luggage Shop, LaRose Shoes, or a number of other stores.  Or I'd walk to where the Omni is now and go to Sears. Or a bunch of us would eat at the bar in the basement of the Robert Meyer Hotel (Roast beef sandwiches with horseradish and ice cold sauerkraut. Yum.)  Or at the restaurants in May Cohens.  Or buy a Triple Threat citrus drink at the juice bar.  I took the bus to and from work from Riverside.   It dropped me off on Forsyth and Laura, and picked me up on Adams and Laura.  I still love downtown, and wish I could still work downtown.  But it's a ghost of what it was then.

[thelakelander]

The channelization and beautification of Hogans and McCoys Creek are two early 20th century local examples of the City Beautiful movement. Unfortunately, we've let them go to hell.

[RattlerGator]

ps:  Was it the Florida Theatre that you were going to or was it the Center Theatre?  Thats where the kung fu marathons were happening.  I didn't realize that they were also doing them at the Florida Theatre.

It is quite possible that I've conflated things (I certainly plead guilty to doing it on other occasions), but my memory says it was definitely the Florida Theatre. This quote is from their current website:

From the early 1970s, until the Theatre was closed on May 8, 1980, B-grade and action movies were shown and the theatre remained only marginally profitable even with concession sales.

[RattlerGator]

Too bad all of those torn down buildings in 70's/80's era NY wasn't saved. What a waste...

No you dee-ent !!! LOL !!!

[Gunnar]

Too bad all of those torn down buildings in 70's/80's era NY wasn't saved. What a waste...

They still have plenty left and I'm quite sure others filled the empty space eventually.

[I-10east]

^^^I was being sarcastic, and channeling my 'inner MJ'. *opens Pandora's Box*

[johnnyroadglide]

Just a question. The picture that says it was taken at Lee Street viaduct looking towards LaVilla. Isn't that actually from Beaver Street looking at the Beaver Street Interlocking tower? I believe Seaboard Airline crossed over on the diagonal crossings to get to and from the train station.

[johncb]

I started hanging out downtown in 1975 as a 12 year old. Id take the bus from the Paxon area (.15 cents !) and go to the library or the army/navy store (you could find the neatest stuff there for nothing) or Id wander around the dept stores,grab a bite to eat,or catch a movie at that gorgeous art deco theater ($1.25  for matinee) .There were all kinds of little shops, like right across from the main library was a used book store where Id buy gorgeous old books for a buck or two. My favorite lunch was a place upstairs in that old club building that had the best hamburger riders. It was always busy downtown,tons of people walking around. In the early 80s I was gone for a while and when I came back I couldn't believe how much downtown had changed. I enjoyed the landing and the Riverwalk,but I sure missed those dusty little stores and all the people you could meet and chat with.