FDOT's First Coast Expressway

[thelakelander]

I don't know if this dog of a road will ever have my full 100% support. Quite simply, there are several other ways to encourage growth and relieve congestion on existing streets that don't require such a large upfront and long term public investment. However, encouraging more density and mix of uses to reduce the amount of local auto trips being made would be beneficial to reducing the burden placed on the back of the taxpayers.

Also, lake, as you know, FCX will be built in specific segments, and not all at once, for financial reasons.  4 lanes (2 lanes, 2 directions) will be built first.  No guarantees that 6-lane or 8-lane sections will ever be built.  So throwing the $2 billion number around is just hypothetical, and, without a doubt, the maximum investment possible.

To be honest, I was being nice with the $2 billion figure. It's going to cost us a lot more to make it usable. Some of those capital costs will come in the form of extending, expanding existing roads in all three counties to purposely feed traffic into it. Start adding in RRR projects after a decade or so, future expansions to the associated road network and the hidden costs will jump significantly.

[tufsu1]

Also, lake, as you know, FCX will be built in specific segments, and not all at once, for financial reasons.  4 lanes (2 lanes, 2 directions) will be built first.  No guarantees that 6-lane or 8-lane sections will ever be built.  So throwing the $2 billion number around is just hypothetical, and, without a doubt, the maximum investment possible.

actually the $2 Billion cost was a low estimate for the roadway.  At one point, FDOT was estimating closer to $3 Billion.  The new Shands Bridge may cost $500 million alone.  And the full costs of the under construction leg from I-10 to Blanding (including the interchange w/ I-10 previously built) is well over $500 million.  So no, it is hardly the maximum investment possible.

[southsider1015]

Also, lake, as you know, FCX will be built in specific segments, and not all at once, for financial reasons.  4 lanes (2 lanes, 2 directions) will be built first.  No guarantees that 6-lane or 8-lane sections will ever be built.  So throwing the $2 billion number around is just hypothetical, and, without a doubt, the maximum investment possible.

actually the $2 Billion cost was a low estimate for the roadway.  At one point, FDOT was estimating closer to $3 Billion.  The new Shands Bridge may cost $500 million alone.  And the full costs of the under construction leg from I-10 to Blanding (including the interchange w/ I-10 previously built) is well over $500 million.  So no, it is hardly the maximum investment possible.

I did some digging...
Actually, the latest numbers that FDOT is stating is $916 million for I-95 to SR 21 (Blanding Blvd) left to fund.  That's $719 million for construction, $197 for environmental mitigation/design/CEI/etc.  ROW is already funded per the 5YR Work Program, and was estimated at $270 million.

The Shands Bridge will not cost $500 million.  No way, no how.  Even with 8 lanes (2 separate bridge structures)and full shoulders (total of approx 70' wide single bridge) and at an approx 9000 LF, thats 630,000 SF of bridge.  Typical costs for roadway bridges are about $150/SF.  So by my numbers, thats $94.5 million per bridge, for a total of $189 million.  Call it $200 million.   Not even half of your number.

We can talk about all the future direct costs such as RRR jobs too, but O&M will be from FTE, and funded by tolls.

What we really can't measure are the direct/indirect benefits from the corridor, as they are subjective and hypothetical in nature.  The numbers I've seen is an estimated 280,000 daily vehicle-hours saved in the Design Year 2035, with an estimated annual savings of $5.4 billion in time.  And that's just time alone, and doesn't include the economic development spurred by construction of the project(s), as well as once the corridor is completed.

Did you know that Clay County is the largest county in Florida without an expressway located in it? 

[southsider1015]

I don't know if this dog of a road will ever have my full 100% support. Quite simply, there are several other ways to encourage growth and relieve congestion on existing streets that don't require such a large upfront and long term public investment. However, encouraging more density and mix of uses to reduce the amount of local auto trips being made would be beneficial to reducing the burden placed on the back of the taxpayers.

To be honest, I was being nice with the $2 billion figure. It's going to cost us a lot more to make it usable. Some of those capital costs will come in the form of extending, expanding existing roads in all three counties to purposely feed traffic into it. Start adding in RRR projects after a decade or so, future expansions to the associated road network and the hidden costs will jump significantly.

Expanding existing roads to purposely feed traffic into it?  You write like that it's such a bad idea to build roads to provide drivers with better connectivity.   Yes it's expensive, but so is ALL infrastructure investments. 

As one poster was getting at, the urbanites don't like roadway construction projects because it doesn't benefit them directly.  The opinion that it's too costly to build projects like this are completely biased towards a different way of life.  Even when introducing a user-based fee, it's still not enough to watch a different class of citizens want something different than other.

I think the OP represents a largely unheard voice in the matter:  The voice of a bedroom Clay County resident who makes the daily commute to Jacksonville, which this project seeks to serve.  While the urbanites shake their fists at the project and demand shared-bike programs, a Skyway extension, two way streets downtown, and another failed Landing project. 

[thelakelander]

Expanding existing roads to purposely feed traffic into it?  You write like that it's such a bad idea to build roads to provide drivers with better connectivity.   Yes it's expensive, but so is ALL infrastructure investments.

Expanding for the sake of expanding and losing money when doing it is bad business. Let's not confuse smart infrastructure investment with any type of infrastructure investment.

As one poster was getting at, the urbanites don't like roadway construction projects because it doesn't benefit them directly.  The opinion that it's too costly to build projects like this are completely biased towards a different way of life.  Even when introducing a user-based fee, it's still not enough to watch a different class of citizens want something different than other.

We're both Southsiders. What's a bad road investment have to do with urbanites, suburbanites or ruralites? No reason to start stereotyping people.

I think the OP represents a largely unheard voice in the matter:  The voice of a bedroom Clay County resident who makes the daily commute to Jacksonville, which this project seeks to serve.  While the urbanites shake their fists at the project and demand shared-bike programs, a Skyway extension, two way streets downtown, and another failed Landing project.

So what about Gator312? What Clay County voice does he represent? Btw, you should read our skyway/Landing expansion threads. You'll see that all these "urbanites" don't view these projects in the same light.

[southsider1015]

Gators312 will be the first one to drive the corridor. 

He/she represents the proud residents of Clay County that believe CC is growing and will continue to grow without FCE.  Which, of course, it will the rest of Florida.  But really, I believe this project will be the spark that begins to put CC on the map.

Expanding for the sake of expanding?  Growth for the sake of growth?  How is growth/expansion bad business for Clay County?  My point is that you're not considering it smart infrastructure because you don't live in CC.  You don't drive to/from CC, I'm guessing.  So of course, it's not smart infrastructure investment...for you.

The OPINION of a bad roadway investment is all about POV.  If you live in the bedroom community of CC, you are a suburbanite and ruralite.  And more than likely, you commute to Jacksonville for work, play, shopping, etc. And you more than likely, you want a faster commute to get to your destination.

[thelakelander]

LOL, I never said growth was bad in this five page thread. I said unsustainable growth....or growth that does not pay for itself...is bad. Not just in Clay County. But any community, urban, suburban or rural.

[tufsu1]

The Shands Bridge will not cost $500 million.  No way, no how.  Even with 8 lanes (2 separate bridge structures)and full shoulders (total of approx 70' wide single bridge) and at an approx 9000 LF, thats 630,000 SF of bridge.  Typical costs for roadway bridges are about $150/SF.  So by my numbers, thats $94.5 million per bridge, for a total of $189 million.  Call it $200 million.   Not even half of your number.

Do some more research...check how much is being spent to build a new bridge in Pensacola...or how about the new I-275 span over Tampa Bay...or maybe just the estimates for a new Mathews Bridge

The latest FDOT cost of $1.2 Billion is in addition to the hundreds of millions being spent on the current leg...and until the road is actually out for bid, those #s are purely an estimate...don't you worry, the whole 50 mile expressway will cost more than $2 Billion when all said and done.

and yes...I am very aware that Clay County is the most populous county in FL without an expressway....great factoid...but why does that automatically translate into actual need?

[thelakelander]

Well I'm the only Davis sibling that doesn't have rims on his vehicle. Since that's the case, you guys want to pitch in and help me shine in time for the family reunion?  It will put me on the map.

[Tacachale]

As one poster was getting at, the urbanites don't like roadway construction projects because it doesn't benefit them directly.  The opinion that it's too costly to build projects like this are completely biased towards a different way of life.  Even when introducing a user-based fee, it's still not enough to watch a different class of citizens want something different than other.

I think the OP represents a largely unheard voice in the matter:  The voice of a bedroom Clay County resident who makes the daily commute to Jacksonville, which this project seeks to serve.  While the urbanites shake their fists at the project and demand shared-bike programs, a Skyway extension, two way streets downtown, and another failed Landing project.

If this is referring to me, that's not what I said. I said I believe that relieving traffic for current residents (ie, the people the expressway ostensibly "seeks to serve") is at most a secondary concern. The primary purpose is to open up new greenfield development. Ok, cool, but that's an awful lot of money to spend for economic development way out there. It's a really steep subsidy for the types of development that, we both agree, is already happening and popular. We definitely don't see that level of investment in the core, which is probably one reason we see so much less development there.

[Tacachale]

Well I'm the only Davis sibling that doesn't have rims on his vehicle. Since that's the case, you guys want to pitch in and help me shine in time for the family reunion?  It will put me on the map.

Ha. My house is the biggest one on my block without college football paraphernalia in the front. Clearly what we need is to get UNF a football team so I can get on the map.

[tufsu1]

Well I'm the only Davis sibling that doesn't have rims on his vehicle. Since that's the case, you guys want to pitch in and help me shine in time for the family reunion?  It will put me on the map.

why not aim higher...maybe a kickstarter cmpaign to get you some spinners

[Adam12]

I don't think spending billions of dollars on a single mode of transportation - which requires a vehicle in order to use it - is a very good idea. I know the legislature won't let FDOT build anything that does not require a car to use it but that needs to change.

[RattlerGator]

The primary purpose is to open up new greenfield development. Ok, cool, but that's an awful lot of money to spend for economic development way out there.

Here, really, is the unacknowledged problem some just don't want to admit. With or without the First Coast Expressway, a new Shands bridge is needed and owed to the residents of Clay and St. Johns counties. With or without the First Coast Expressway, new roadway construction was DESPERATELY needed in Clay County and would HAVE to have been delivered anyway. None of which even gets at the relatively short-end-of-the-stick Westsiders in Duval County have traditionally received.

But we're having this conversation, it seems to me, as if it (the conversation) is based on some controlling objective facts. It isn't. All of this back-and-forth is about subjective preferences and Tacachale just essentially admitted as much.

All of it.

Way out there, indeed, Tacachale.

And Ennis, I haven't gone back to read the earlier stuff before (I think) page 4 of this thread. I hope I wasn't uncharitable in my responses.

As I think I said earlier, I've driven the Polk Parkway; this is nothing remotely close to that situation. And believe it or not, people traveling south on I-75 do have reasons to head east on I-10 and connect with I-95. IMHO, there are more reasons for this expressway than seems to be readily acknowledged. Some of us are just trying to keep the "metro" in metrojacksonville.com -- you know?

[thelakelander]

And Ennis, I haven't gone back to read the earlier stuff before (I think) page 4 of this thread. I hope I wasn't uncharitable in my responses.

^Yes, you're uncharitable when it comes to my responses. I don't have any problem with spending money in Clay County or any other place when the investment makes sense .  I'm claiming that this particular project doesn't make economic sense. My position has nothing to do with urban vs suburban, people's way of life, Clay vs Duval or any of those other red herrings that tend to make their way into debates on infrastructure.

As I think I said earlier, I've driven the Polk Parkway; this is nothing remotely close to that situation.

Yes, the Polk Parkway is in an area with higher population density and growth potential....especially when it comes to moving freight.  To be totally honest, Clay would have wet dreams if the FCE resulted in a fraction of the amount of logistics, manufacturing, tourism, educational and commercial development within close proximity of the Polk Parkway.

And believe it or not, people traveling south on I-75 do have reasons to head east on I-10 and connect with I-95.

This why I keep saying separate the validity of the specific project....which is not an indictment on Clay or its residents.  Yes, there are several trips utilizing I-10 for this particular connection.  However, the FCE takes one so far out of the way, it will be quicker and cheaper to keep using I-295.  In the event that I-295 ever reaches a level of congestion that would discourage its usage, there will be express lanes to take.  The installation of those express lanes aren't doing the future of the FCE any favors.

Some of us are just trying to keep the "metro" in metrojacksonville.com -- you know?

Again, keeping it "metro" and spending billions on something that doesn't make economic sense are two different things.