WHEN MJ CHOSE THE BUSES... (How will the anti-transit Orungutan's counter this?)

[fightingosprey07]

Ocklawaha,  this is completely off topic, but I have to ask. What happens if one of these electric trolley buses has to swerve to avoid something in the road? How much slack is there in the overhead wire?

FIGHTING OSPREY, Not off the subject at all... In fact it's been hijacked!! It WUZ about our choice of trolley buses, LOL.

Your question is a common but very good one, Trolley buses have twin "trolley poles" for the reason that one cannot ground a system through a rubber tire. So the bus will always have twin wires until the day that solar or battery can take command. Because of this, and a streetcars absolute fixed route, the trolley bus folks figured long ago that they would be somewhere between bus and streetcar in ridership. To compliment the streetcars doing the heavy work, the buses had to run on time. To address this on smaller local streets they had to come up with a system for the swerve or passing another car. The twin trolley poles are very long, and extend on a pivot. The electric trolley bus can swing (in a near lane) right around the stalled car, UPS truck or crime scene. Not a problem.


Allow me to add that the reason you would not want ALL trolley bus when we could have streetcar AND trolley bus is that streetcar can be built to handle future LRT needs. MUCH bigger vehicles and able to entrain with more then one car - per driver. Also the life span on electrics is better then Diesel, BUT, buses are buses and still have the wear and tear time limits that rail doesn't share. So you build rail on the projected heavy routes, and trolley bus on the dense feeders downtown. The Skyway plays the role as our MAINLINE (yes folks I said that, over the streetcars) it can handle the future "SUBWAY" role for Jacksonville. Hope this helps and welcome to the discussion.

OCKLAWAHA

How many cities currently have these in operation? I've never seen any

[Ocklawaha]

In North America transit was the victim of a conspiracy sometimes called the "Transit Holocaust" or "Streetcar Holocaust." The companies involved were later convicted in court for dismantling about 70 of the prime electric streetcar and interurban systems in the country. In fact Jacksonville was perhaps victim number one! Ours was bought out, after gifts to the political forces, and a promise of "the only GM distribution center of it's kind". (a lie). Thus Motor Transit took control, and MT was owned by National City Lines, which was owned by GM, Firestone, Standard Oil and Phillips. So while streetcars were well rooted, the trolley bus was a fairly new concept. One that GM or the other automakers had little interest in pushing. So unique to our continent, Trolley Bus Systems, could be counted on two hands. HOWEVER, go out of the USA and they are very common as backup transit for the mainlines. All over the EU, and in SA as well. There are at least two big builders in our country that export the coaches around the world. Notable here are, Toronto, Vancouver, Boston, Dayton, San Francisco, Seattle.

The same coaches JTA just bought, are also available from Gillig in Trolley form.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Finally an answer we can agree on!

maybe this is the wrong thread for this but here's something I found today:

Survey: Parking is top lure for visitors to AC
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS • September 11, 2008


ATLANTIC CITY â€" What's the main reason people go to Atlantic City? Hint: it's not gambling.

A new survey by the Atlantic City Convention and Visitors Authority finds gambling ranks seventh on a list of why people choose to come to the resort.

Easy parking topped the list, followed by the convenience of getting to Atlantic City; the ease of getting around within the city; dining options; hotel room availability, and the beach and Boardwalk.

Jeff Vasser, the authority's president, says the yearlong survey of more than 3,000
visitors validates Atlantic City's efforts to transform itself into a destination resort where gambling is only one of the attractions.

Visitors to the resort declined last year to 33 million from 34 million in 2006.

Maybe JAX should look to see what AC is doing right regarding parking, in addition AC has a great jitney system and the equipment used is nothing more than gussied up bread trucks.
Google AC Jitneys for more info

ATLANTIC CITY and NJ TRANSIT...
Streetcar - Planning LRT (rail currently connects near Lindenwold).
Rail - Station 3 platforms and 5 tracks
Expressway - complete system
Bus - City bus
Bus - Jittneys
Bus - Limo services
Bus - Complimentary shuttles (Casino resorts)
Ferrys - Overnight and day service to NYC
Helicopter - Commuter flights
Air - Commuter Flights




















RAIL RIDERSHIP ALONE last year, just to the downtown station was 1.27 Million.
So AGREED, WE SHOULD AT LEAST DO WHAT ATLANTIC CITY HAS DONE!

OCKLAWAHA

[apvbguy]

Finally an answer we can agree on!

too bad you don't have your facts straight, the LRT as you call it is a heavy rail system that terminates about 40 miles from AC, there are no ferries in use that is pure fantasy, inclusion of helicopters? come on maybe a few select high rollers get to use them but that is rare, those PRIVATE shuttle buses or limos shouldn't enter into the equation they are for hire and not for the general public's use, the complete highway system is the terminus of a toll road, but there is an airport about 15 miles out of town.

I seriously doubt the  numbers you gave for the rail line, are you sure those are for rides into AC, the other end of the line is used as a commuter line into Philadelphia and that is probably generating the ridership numbers, nobody commutes from AC to Philadelphia

Nice try tho, the point was that 33 million visitors drove to AC because the town has made accommodations for huge amounts of auto usage, the 1 million you claim to have arrived via trains is a tiny percentage of people.
let's see how open minded you are, I know you'll say anything to garner support for your transit schemes, I again urge you to look at their very efficient jitney system, which btw is privately operated and shuttles people around town, a jitney comes every few minutes costs were 1.50 the last time I was there and it costs the taxpayers NOTHING

[Lunican]

Do the jitneys use roads? If so, they are subsidized by taxpayers.

[Ocklawaha]

too bad you don't have your facts straight, the LRT as you call it is a heavy rail system that terminates about 40 miles from AC, there are no ferries in use that is pure fantasy, inclusion of helicopters? come on maybe a few select high rollers get to use them but that is rare, those PRIVATE shuttle buses or limos shouldn't enter into the equation they are for hire and not for the general public's use, the complete highway system is the terminus of a toll road, but there is an airport about 15 miles out of town.

I seriously doubt the  numbers you gave for the rail line, are you sure those are for rides into AC, the other end of the line is used as a commuter line into Philadelphia and that is probably generating the ridership numbers, nobody commutes from AC to Philadelphia

Nice try tho, the point was that 33 million visitors drove to AC because the town has made accommodations for huge amounts of auto usage, the 1 million you claim to have arrived via trains is a tiny percentage of people.
let's see how open minded you are, I know you'll say anything to garner support for your transit schemes, I again urge you to look at their very efficient jitney system, which btw is privately operated and shuttles people around town, a jitney comes every few minutes costs were 1.50 the last time I was there and it costs the taxpayers NOTHING

Where do think the Jittneys get their funding? Some amazing profit base in Atlantic City that isn't in Florida?
Sorry Louie, "get YOUR facts straight".

The Jittneys are operated under the Community Transit Act... And the Community Transit Association... Same pot of PUBLIC GOLD that feeds similar services in Saint Johns County, Lake City or other smaller places. NJT buses and trains are the number TWO transit agency in the USA and the subsidy is HUGE. Complete highway system, yes, a freeway with interchanges that makes a Bee Line for Atlantic City and ends in a grid of paved roads. You seem to think those cars are floating above the dirt? FREE DIRT? Duh... Freeways, highways, city streets, all tax payer built and maintained. Trains, over a million and growing, The high speed line in the photos ties to the new "River Line" on the Jersey side of Philly. It will get you about 1/2 way to Atlantic City and NJT trains will take you the rest of the way into the terminal... OR you can just use the NJT trains... OR you can transfer from the River Line to NJT... OR you can transfer from Amtrak to NJT... OR... You REALLY don't think I know where the railroads are? Ferrys? YES, matter of fact... it's called transit. Helicopters "Maybe a few High Rollers use them"... Maybe so, but it's a scheduled commute from the other cities, so it's called TRANSIT. Those high rollers could drive but don't. Buses, Trucks, NJ, NYC. Maybe this pish and claptrap is just because JACKSONVILLE is not nor will ever be NEW YORK/NJ - THANK YOU "Sweet Baby Jesus" (as friend Stephen says). You know all those big rigs delivering the bread have a sticker that says this truck pays XXXXX dollars a year in road use taxes. Smoke and mirrors my man, take the total of all such trucks in the USA, x the total taxes, and you couldn't patch the potholes in the NJ Turnpike. SUBSIDY.

Atlantic City TRANSIT AGENCIES
ACJA (Atlantic City Jitney Association)
NJT (New Jersey Transit Corporation)
OTHER SITES
SJTA (South Jersey Transportation Authority)

let's see how open minded you are, I know you'll say anything to garner support for your transit schemes,

Yes, I want to make millions by sucking the life blood from the taxpayers - hogwash, if I wanted to get rich quick, it sure wouldn't be in this business with my retirement! By the way, are you on these boards because you think "telling a liberal the truth" will confuse everyone in Jacksonville? If so, you are wasting our time, we have a City to guide, and it's not politics that guide it. VOICES like ours, being at meetings, giving a Damn, pro active. You can join our efforts or continue to spew spit at every post and member, the net result of which will be getting yourself banned

OCKLAWAHA

[apvbguy]

Where do think the Jittneys get their funding? Some amazing profit base in Atlantic City that isn't in Florida?
Sorry Louie, "get YOUR facts straight".

The Jittneys are operated under the Community Transit Act... And the Community Transit Association... Same pot of PUBLIC GOLD that feeds similar services in Saint Johns County, Lake City or other smaller places. NJT buses and trains are the number TWO transit agency in the USA and the subsidy is HUGE. Complete highway system, yes, a freeway with interchanges that makes a Bee Line for Atlantic City and ends in a grid of paved roads. You seem to think those cars are floating above the dirt? FREE DIRT? Duh... Freeways, highways, city streets, all tax payer built and maintained. Trains, over a million and growing, The high speed line in the photos ties to the new "River Line" on the Jersey side of Philly. It will get you about 1/2 way to Atlantic City and NJT trains will take you the rest of the way into the terminal... OR you can just use the NJT trains... OR you can transfer from the River Line to NJT... OR you can transfer from Amtrak to NJT... OR... You REALLY don't think I know where the railroads are? Ferrys? YES, matter of fact... it's called transit. Helicopters "Maybe a few High Rollers use them"... Maybe so, but it's a scheduled commute from the other cities, so it's called TRANSIT. Those high rollers could drive but don't. Buses, Trucks, NJ, NYC. Maybe this pish and claptrap is just because JACKSONVILLE is not nor will ever be NEW YORK/NJ - THANK YOU "Sweet Baby Jesus" (as friend Stephen says). You know all those big rigs delivering the bread have a sticker that says this truck pays XXXXX dollars a year in road use taxes. Smoke and mirrors my man, take the total of all such trucks in the USA, x the total taxes, and you couldn't patch the potholes in the NJ Turnpike. SUBSIDY.

Atlantic City TRANSIT AGENCIES
ACJA (Atlantic City Jitney Association)
NJT (New Jersey Transit Corporation)
OTHER SITES
SJTA (South Jersey Transportation Authority)


Yes, I want to make millions by sucking the life blood from the taxpayers - hogwash, if I wanted to get rich quick, it sure wouldn't be in this business with my retirement! By the way, are you on these boards because you think "telling a liberal the truth" will confuse everyone in Jacksonville? If so, you are wasting our time, we have a City to guide, and it's not politics that guide it. VOICES like ours, being at meetings, giving a Damn, pro active. You can join our efforts or continue to spew spit at every post and member, the net result of which will be getting yourself banned

No ockie, you seem to have a credibility dysfunction, the following is from the ac jitney website. www.jitneys.net/552.html and please note the part that says NON SUBSIDIZED, now why would they post info that wasn't correct? And why are you so aghast that public transport can efficiently run without GOVERNMENTAL FUNDING?

(start quote from web site)
The Atlantic City Jitney Association serves the needs of the local community as well as the millions of visitors to Atlantic City. They provide convenient, on time transportation to various points in Atlantic City.

The Association also is actively involved within the community, with such programs as the Make-A-Wish Foundation, the Red Cross, and sponsoring various events as the Atlantic City Hall of Fame which honors Atlantic City's finest citizens.

Our History

The Atlantic City Jitney Association was started in 1915. It is the longest running non-subsidized transit company in America.The term jitney is an old English term which means nickel. Around the turn of the century, many Jitney services sprang up throughout the country.When the first Jitney Buses arrived on the streets of Atlantic City in 1947 they were large, black touring cars that used a rope and pulley system to open the back doors. The latest version is a modern luxury thirteen passenger mini-bus.

Our Staff

Currently there are 190 individually owned and operated units which run reliably 24 hours a day, 365 days per year. In addition the Association runs a Bus Shuttle from the Atlantic City Train Station to the various Casinos. The Drivers of the Atlantic City Jitney Association take great pride in providing safe and affordable transportation to everyone in Atlantic City.

Board Of Directors

President - Emmanuel "Manny" Mathioudakis
Vice President - John Lafranchi
Secretary - Bruce Hunt
Treasurer - Frank Becktel

(end quote from website)

I'll respond to the rest of the hackneyed facts in the next message

[apvbguy]

too bad you don't have your facts straight, the LRT as you call it is a heavy rail system that terminates about 40 miles from AC, there are no ferries in use that is pure fantasy, inclusion of helicopters? come on maybe a few select high rollers get to use them but that is rare, those PRIVATE shuttle buses or limos shouldn't enter into the equation they are for hire and not for the general public's use, the complete highway system is the terminus of a toll road, but there is an airport about 15 miles out of town.

I seriously doubt the  numbers you gave for the rail line, are you sure those are for rides into AC, the other end of the line is used as a commuter line into Philadelphia and that is probably generating the ridership numbers, nobody commutes from AC to Philadelphia

Nice try tho, the point was that 33 million visitors drove to AC because the town has made accommodations for huge amounts of auto usage, the 1 million you claim to have arrived via trains is a tiny percentage of people.
let's see how open minded you are, I know you'll say anything to garner support for your transit schemes, I again urge you to look at their very efficient jitney system, which btw is privately operated and shuttles people around town, a jitney comes every few minutes costs were 1.50 the last time I was there and it costs the taxpayers NOTHING

Where do think the Jittneys get their funding? Some amazing profit base in Atlantic City that isn't in Florida?
Sorry Louie, "get YOUR facts straight".

The Jittneys are operated under the Community Transit Act... And the Community Transit Association... Same pot of PUBLIC GOLD that feeds similar services in Saint Johns County, Lake City or other smaller places. NJT buses and trains are the number TWO transit agency in the USA and the subsidy is HUGE.

you've got this right the subsidies are huge and are a reason the NJ has some of the highest taxes in the nation and the state is still on the verge of bankruptcy and businesses and people, myself included are fleeing in droves.
is high taxes for transit really the panacea you are trying to make it out to be?

, The high speed line in the photos ties to the new "River Line" on the Jersey side of Philly. It will get you about 1/2 way to Atlantic City and NJT trains will take you the rest of the way into the terminal... OR you can just use the NJT trains... OR you can transfer from the River Line to NJT... OR you can transfer from Amtrak to NJT... OR... You REALLY don't think I know where the railroads are?

it is apparent you don't know where THESE lines are, first the river line (light rail line that runs on shared freight tracks) runs from trenton to camden, it is a part time route and it is known as the largest multi billion + boondoogle ever conceived, it is not well used and if you're familiar with the territory is serves you'd understand why it isn't used, it is a monument to the transit at any cost advocates. there is a link to the high speed line you confused with the river line, the high speed line, know as PATCO is a heavy rail line that is a commuter line running from lindenwold nj into philadelphia, running as a subway line in philadelphia, this line is a well run but highly subsidized commuter line, AMTRAK has no lines running to AC, NJT serves the line and the line is a lightly used orphan of the NJT rail system, it is mainly a commuter line to philadelphia, some do use it to get to AC but it has a sporadic schedule and isn't very popular.

Ferrys? YES, matter of fact... it's called transit.

THERE IS NO SCHEDULED FERRY SERVICE FROM NYC TO AC, the trip would be over 125 miles in the open waters of the atlantic, ferry service like this is another fantasy.

Helicopters "Maybe a few High Rollers use them"... Maybe so, but it's a scheduled commute from the other cities, so it's called TRANSIT.

another trip to transit fantasy land, there are no scheduled helicopter trips to AC, it is all by charter

Those high rollers could drive but don't. Buses, Trucks, NJ, NYC. Maybe this pish and claptrap is just because JACKSONVILLE is not nor will ever be NEW YORK/NJ - THANK YOU "Sweet Baby Jesus" (as friend Stephen says). You know all those big rigs delivering the bread have a sticker that says this truck pays XXXXX dollars a year in road use taxes. Smoke and mirrors my man, take the total of all such trucks in the USA, x the total taxes, and you couldn't patch the potholes in the NJ Turnpike. SUBSIDY.


Yes, I want to make millions by sucking the life blood from the taxpayers - hogwash, if I wanted to get rich quick, it sure wouldn't be in this business with my retirement! By the way, are you on these boards because you think "telling a liberal the truth" will confuse everyone in Jacksonville? If so, you are wasting our time, we have a City to guide, and it's not politics that guide it. VOICES like ours, being at meetings, giving a Damn, pro active. You can join our efforts or continue to spew spit at every post and member, the net result of which will be getting yourself banned

OCKLAWAHA

what is this supposed to mean? try and stick to the facts and not this type of psycho babble

You want me banned because I disagree with your dreams and poke huge holes in your version of the facts?
now isn't squelching dissent a bit fascist? are we in china, russia? mussolini's italy? you know he did get the trains to run on time.
If you want me banned because I don't buy into the pie in the sky transit fantasies you have, then you have a real problem because banning me won't bolster your case, in fact I am helping you by exposing the flaws in your theories, and if you can't deal with me, how will you ever deal with government who by your own admissions "can't stand you" and "think you're crazed"

If you think a ban on thoughts that don't mesh with yours is the way to go, so be, it ban me, then you can preach to the like minded choir, you can wallow in group think, and accept the accolades that come from like minded, but you run the danger of when you step out into the real world where there will be a lot of people who like me have differing views of how to spend billions of dollars, your plans will die in the morass of government committees.
good luck with your cause

[Ocklawaha]

what is this supposed to mean? try and stick to the facts and not this type of psycho babble

You want me banned because I disagree with your dreams and poke huge holes in your version of the facts?
now isn't squelching dissent a bit fascist? are we in china, russia? mussolini's italy, you know he did get the trains to run on time.
If you want me banned because I don't buy into the pie in the sky transit fantasies you have, then you have a real problem because banning me won't bolster your case, in fact I am helping you by exposing the flaws in your theories, and if you can't deal with me, how will you ever deal with government who by your own admissions "can't stand you" and "think you're crazed"

If you think a ban on thoughts that don't mesh with yours is the way to go, so be, it ban me, then you can preach to the like minded choir, you can wallow in group think, and accept the accolades that come from like minded, but you run the danger of when you step out into the real world where there will be a lot of people who like me have differing views of how to spend billions of dollars, your plans will die in the morass of government committees.
good luck with your cause

Guess you don't know the River Line is one of the success stories of NJT? Development taxes have more then made up for any loss to the tax paying homeowners. They are now considering a whole expansion of the system, which may include Atlantic City and the High Speed Line.

Simply an observation that your confrontational posting to anything on these boards is not winning you any praise. Why not try and be constructive rather then destructive. You answered your own question, NJ has the highest taxes in the nation and is nearly bankrupt. (in more ways then one) But you miss the obvious that transit didn't get them there, in fact if it were not for Mass Transit, the whole of NJ would flop in a great heap of smoking humanity (see 911 - all transit lines closed).

I only want the best for Jacksonville and it's people. If my idea of the BEST is different then yours, so be it, but this constant flaming is going no where. "Want you banned?" HA! Now who is putting words in someone elses mouth? I'm just saying, chill and join in rather then sit and throw rocks. We can still disagree.

OCKLAWAHA