Presentation for: New Southbank Riverwalk

[tufsu1]

Does Redman know? I could have sworn bikes were mentioned in the interview.

Well it wouldn't be the first time he didn't know what he was talking about. 

he's actually very informed and dedicated to bike issues in town

[tufsu1]

And no cyclist is going to dismount like they expect them to with this, so problems will def arise from this design. What's the point of a bike path that you have to walk through in places? My guess is they wont touch the benches & shade poles until people start getting injured.

many do on the northbank riverwalk in front of Fionn MacCools...and btw, the riverwalk isn't meant to be a "bike path"

yes, I would have preferred that the space be 10-12' wide....but 8' is the minimal acceptable width for a multi-use path....while unfortunate, I'm ok if it is tighter in spots because of cost or permitting issues

[Ralph W]

The title "Riverwalk" implies movement, whether pedestrian, runners or bikes. Cost restraints may have contributed to a narrow path but an occasional widening for benches for the weary would not break the bank and no one would get a kick in the teeth as a biker dismounts. Still a chance for a retrofit?

[thelakelander]

The easiest way to retrofit is removal of benches that penetrate the minimal desired clear area for bike/ped interaction.

[edjax]

Does Redman know? I could have sworn bikes were mentioned in the interview.

Well it wouldn't be the first time he didn't know what he was talking about. 

he's actually very informed and dedicated to bike issues in town

Ok, seems like if such the big advocate for bikes he would have been on top of this issue then before it was built.  Guess not thugh.

[edjax]

It just seems to me that some of our very urban core and pedestrian/bike advocates from this site could have been more proactive in this build before it was done. I mean this has been on the table for years.  You review the 295 widening thread on here and you see plenty of comments regarding that those suburbanites in Mandarin should have been screaming and yelling earlier if they wanted it differently. Seems like to me the same for this issue.

[I-10east]

^^^+100

[peestandingup]

And no cyclist is going to dismount like they expect them to with this, so problems will def arise from this design. What's the point of a bike path that you have to walk through in places? My guess is they wont touch the benches & shade poles until people start getting injured.

many do on the northbank riverwalk in front of Fionn MacCools...and btw, the riverwalk isn't meant to be a "bike path"

yes, I would have preferred that the space be 10-12' wide....but 8' is the minimal acceptable width for a multi-use path....while unfortunate, I'm ok if it is tighter in spots because of cost or permitting issues

Are we really gonna do this? Its meant to be a wide multi-use pedestrian path (which also includes bikes) & we all know it, so why hamper cyclists with such a crap design? Besides, what effects them will ultimately effect other non-cycling pedestrians as well.

Yes, and I mentioned the bottleneck in front of Fionn MacCools earlier & how it disrupts everyone who gets caught in it, runners, cyclist, as well as just people out for a stroll. And its never been addressed or fixed, even though its clearly an issue for everyone. So here we go again I guess, but looks like the southbank wanted to one-up them here.

[Noone]

This is the 2007 Downtown Action Plan that we just knocked the dust off. Ron Barton where are you?  So you bring it back and the width part should have been reviewed throughout the process. The bike guys should have the pedal to the metal instead of it turning into a cycle red light camera zone.

As for the Northbank bottleneck that will and should be corrected with the Landing redo. In fact I believe the DIA just appropriated some money and I want to say 100K to look at the project again. I welcome any correction to that. The biggest news story yet to come is the Don and Scott show and the Waterways coverup when it comes to economic watercraft opportunity on our St. Johns River our American Heritage River in our CRA/DIA zone.

Someone's Fishin Lord, Kumbaya
Someone's Fishin Lord, Kumbaya

[thelakelander]

It just seems to me that some of our very urban core and pedestrian/bike advocates from this site could have been more proactive in this build before it was done. I mean this has been on the table for years.  You review the 295 widening thread on here and you see plenty of comments regarding that those suburbanites in Mandarin should have been screaming and yelling earlier if they wanted it differently. Seems like to me the same for this issue.

Except the actual presentation provided to the public is the purpose of this exact thread. The presentation is really detailed and well put together.  However, it does give the viewer the impression of something much wider than the section/benches in the Redman video. Take a look for yourself:









So I'd argue the issue is somewhat different.

[tufsu1]

Yes, and I mentioned the bottleneck in front of Fionn MacCools earlier & how it disrupts everyone who gets caught in it, runners, cyclist, as well as just people out for a stroll. And its never been addressed or fixed, even though its clearly an issue for everyone. So here we go again I guess, but looks like the southbank wanted to one-up them here.

the difference is that path is literally about 5' wide...and this is at least double that, not including the benches.

The problem isn't the path width....it is the amenities.

[edjax]

It just seems to me that some of our very urban core and pedestrian/bike advocates from this site could have been more proactive in this build before it was done. I mean this has been on the table for years.  You review the 295 widening thread on here and you see plenty of comments regarding that those suburbanites in Mandarin should have been screaming and yelling earlier if they wanted it differently. Seems like to me the same for this issue.

Except the actual presentation provided to the public is the purpose of this exact thread. The presentation is really detailed and well put together.  However, it does give the viewer the impression of something much wider than the section/benches in the Redman video. Take a look for yourself:









So I'd argue the issue is somewhat different.

And nobody noticed while under construction for e past year that it didn't look the same as presentation?  I know what you are saying but people showed up for the public presentations o. 295 too and I am guessing what they saw didn't look like they ended up with either.  Again just all the complaining after the project is nearly done seems pointless.  I guess nobody wandered down there to check it out the past year of construction to see if didn't match the presentation or cared enough to check it out. Isn't the designer of the project a member on here and regular contributor?

[edjax]

And no cyclist is going to dismount like they expect them to with this, so problems will def arise from this design. What's the point of a bike path that you have to walk through in places? My guess is they wont touch the benches & shade poles until people start getting injured.

many do on the northbank riverwalk in front of Fionn MacCools...and btw, the riverwalk isn't meant to be a "bike path"

yes, I would have preferred that the space be 10-12' wide....but 8' is the minimal acceptable width for a multi-use path....while unfortunate, I'm ok if it is tighter in spots because of cost or permitting issues

Are we really gonna do this? Its meant to be a wide multi-use pedestrian path (which also includes bikes) & we all know it, so why hamper cyclists with such a crap design? Besides, what effects them will ultimately effect other non-cycling pedestrians as well.

Yes, and I mentioned the bottleneck in front of Fionn MacCools earlier & how it disrupts everyone who gets caught in it, runners, cyclist, as well as just people out for a stroll. And its never been addressed or fixed, even though its clearly an issue for everyone. So here we go again I guess, but looks like the southbank wanted to one-up them here.

If there are no bikes allowed on I would not see an issue really. Been to the NYC Highline?? Very narrow in spots and with many many more people using it than will ever use the Riverwalk and that seems to work fine.  To me bikes really shouldn't be on it, just because a pedestrian walkway does it mean bikes should be included.  I see lots of sidewalks where bikes are prohibited for obvious reasons.  Bikes not allowed on the Highline either. 

[edjax]

Following is email from C. Flagg on the issue. 

From: Flagg, Chris
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2015 2:09 PM
To: Fallin, Thomas
Subject: RE: Southbank Riverwalk - Access Width - CM Redman

Hey Tom:

Thank you very much for reaching out to me and I'm happy to explain our design reasoning for the subject item.

While in our initial design phase, an immediate request arose from multiple sources, ie; the COJ, the JEDC (at the time) and from residents, to insure that whenever possible, shade was of utmost importance. It was noted at that time, the Northbank riverwalk had fallen significantly short of increasing shade areas for pedestrians, so we intended to create areas to accommodate that program item. Landscaping was not an option due to the concrete design of the replacement structure. Thus, the shade sails were chosen as the alternative shade providing structures. They became a principal design element within the project and due to the multiple restrictions due to the walk's width and length, strategic planning was necessary to ensure that we could provide adequate pedestrian shade areas, along with achieving, within budgets, proper walkway widths for the length of the project. You will notice that at all shade sail locations, the walk width is totally shaded by the sail. The benches were provided and manufactured to our specifications, to not only provide seating, but to provide head height protection to pedestrians due to the limited width and ground mounting capacity of this shade sail design. Because of the limitations on walkway width, we had to choose a bench manufacturer that could provide the circular seating to maximize all of our above concerns. A straight bench cannot work with this shade sail as it presents to many pedestrian hazards. Our bench and shade solution was one of many considered and was finalized after much thought and effort was put into the final design intent.

As for bicycles, although we provide bike racks and varying walkway widths throughout the length of the design in order to accentuate certain points of interest in our overall design, the intent was to have it available for the casual bike user and was not meant to create any bike/pedestrian conflicts for various safety and liability reasons. It was always thought that the pedestrian would have the benefit of right-of-way and that bikers would be considerate enough to dismount at high pedestrian use areas, seating areas and gathering spaces. There was never any conversation regarding any serious bike routing on this riverwalk in the context of races, competitions or even any fast riding. Therefore, all walkway widths, pass through points, etc., all meet or exceed safety and handicapped accessibility requirements for pedestrians. Lastly, the COJ program criteria was for the walkway to be built all over water, so widths and length became a very important element of consideration in order to have all of the most important elements of the design intact.

With that being said, I was also involved in the "San Marco by Design" effort sponsored by the COJ a couple of years ago, and it was pointed out at that time that the Southbank Riverwalk would be a critical pedestrian path to encircle the southbank area and that it COULD be used by bikers, but with considerations and limitations. The primary function is as a walkway, not a bikeway. I was part of the initial visioning plan effort for the Riverplace Blvd redevelopment plans as well, and it was of high importance for any new road design to contain a dedicated bikeway to be used in accordance to all context sensitive street design criteria. That would provide the overall circumnavigation of the southbank neighborhood by bike, as desired by the residence.

Also, during the multiple iterations related to redesign of the river walk, its length and its access points fluctuated a number of times so that there were not always proper connection points that would serve both the pedestrian and biker due to narrow walks, through-building access, etc.

To summarize, with all of the early program, design and budget restrictions, the most effective solutions to provide an exciting pedestrian walkway to serve the community as a destination, gathering point and river front interpretation opportunity, were implemented to maximize the best solution for all users.

I apologize for the lengthy explanation, but due to the complexity of the design, much thought and consideration was addressed for all potential users and although maybe not totally ideal, it will serve our community as a wonderful riverfront destination.

I will be happy to meet personally with you, your staff, Councilman Redman, or whomever would like further clarification on this or other matters related to the Southbank design. Councilman Redman has been an ardent supporter of this effort and I fully appreciate his continued interest in its successful completion.

Thanks very much,
Chris

Christopher D. Flagg, FASLA
Director of Design – Municipal and Education Division
Haskell
111 Riverside Avenue, Jacksonville, FL 32202

[thelakelander]

Edjax, anyone outside of those involved with the project would have a hard time noticing the bench issue because they don't have access to the construction site. Nevertheless, the issue can easily be resolved....if there is a goal for bike/ped access. Just remove benches from areas where the width is significantly constrained.