Riverside Avondale Night Trolley Ridership Plummets

[exnewsman]

Moved back to Avondale last month. so got thinking about the Riverside/Avondale Night Trolley.

Ridership on the Riverside/Avondale Night Trolley dropped dramatically from a high of 1400 early last year to an average of 300 over the past two months. Any thoughts on how to reinvigorate ridership so the trolley doesn't go away? I think its a great feature to have in the historic district.

How likely is it that businesses along the route would be willing to contribute in some financial way to keep the trolleys running? If so, what's the best way to do that? Sponsorships? Straight up cash contribution? Promotional in-kind services?

Do you think adding the Downtown Night Trolley will help or hurt the R/A route?

Some say it should run every weekend. But with drastically falling ridership, how does JTA justify that?

[David]

^ It seems if it were to run every weekend people could at least rely on it. When it's only once a month, it's hard to remember which weekend it's in service. If JTA is going to dabble with it, do it every weekend for a set amount of time.

[exnewsman]

I've ridden several times over the past few months and honestly  I don't feel like it's worth the cost (to the rider or to the city to provide it).  I'd rather walk, ride my bike, or drive my own vehicle.

The trolleys themselves are pretty dingy on the inside and I feel like most people ride it out of a sense of "it's what you do if you're in the know" rather than any real convenience.  Hell, the last time I rode it it would have been much faster, and wasted less gas, for me and the others on our trolley to just drive our own cars home.

I think one of the main reasons there is trolley service is due to the lack of parking in those areas - five points, shoppes of Avondale and park/king especially.

[ronchamblin]

Insomnia.

The Night Trolley is an experiment.  I've never ridden it, having no cause.  Why would I want to ride from my apartment just north of Bay Street, to Avondale or Five Points at night?  If I was again twenty or thirty, I might wish to do so while drinking ... to have fun and meet new females of the species.  I cannot remember the exact night trolley route. but it seems to have been basically between Bay Street and Avondale ... through Five Points.

People do things or support something continually as a habit over long periods only if there is good reason or cause to do so. 

It seems that what is needed in order to create a successful Night Trolley operation extending west of the city core -- if a route is indeed the objective -- is to recognize that at least three things are needed.

But first, why would a city wish to create a Night Trolley route having a reasonably high ridership?  Surely there are at least two or three basic reasons to have a route.  One might be that it will provide evening transportation for those who have no autos, or who simply do not wish to drive.  Another is that it would provide safe transportation for those who don't drive while drinking.  And it is a positive impact on the environment.  It is a social experience, as people seldom meet others while driving unless in an accident or in a road rage event.

But back to the three or so things needed in order to have a successful Night Trolley route.

Assuming that the essence of a "night" route would be that of providing a link between residential neighborhoods and areas of entertainment or night life, then we might suggest that on thing needed is the existence of a residential population occupying a large extended neighborhood.  This already exists in Riverside, Avondale, Murray Hill, Ortega, and other westside areas. 

The second is to have enough cause to travel from these neighborhoods; that is, a destination deserving travel to it ... on a consistent basis.  Does downtown have enough to "do" ... on a continual basis?  What exists, or what is going on downtown in the evenings ... on every night?  The Bay Street bar strip provides somewhat of a draw.  But what if one doesn't barhop?  What else is there in the core at night?  There are a few restaurants.  There is the Museum and the Florida Theatre, and on some nights a game or performance out east, past the Bay Street bar strip.  And occasionally there are events at the Landing.  But really ... not enough to cause a habitual journey to the core on most evenings.

A trolley route makes sense if there is both a residential population ... and a night-life destination to which the population might wish to travel.
If we consider that the night-life areas of Five Points, Park & King, and Stockton, are somewhat destinations, then one might realize that the population desiring to visit those areas might just be only blocks away ... in Riverside, Avondale, Murray Hill.  Why ride a Trolley route established between the city core and Riverside/Avondale? 

The third thing is the idea of route permanence and reliability.  This takes money and investment.  Whereas now, individuals might sense that the Night Trolley experiment is doomed, as there is no real or practical force tending to perpetuate it ... if the city had the resources to fund the Trolley "every night", then there might be a slow ridership increase after two or three years of reliable operation.  The Trolley, and the route, would become a convenience and then a necessity to more individuals over time, and because of the ease of travel to the core, the Trolley could be a force for not only revitalizing the core, but for encouraging business investment along the routes. 

In general, any effective and reliable mass transit system that endures over two or three years, subsidized by the tax base initially, will be a force to gradually shift many former drivers to the use of mass transit.  A sense of dependability and necessity will emerge.  And more will use the Trolley ... the Streetcar ... the Light Rail.  Over time, the system will have emerged from one of experiment and novelty, to that of a mature system, much needed by the population ... that pays its way.   

       

[exnewsman]

I've ridden several times over the past few months and honestly  I don't feel like it's worth the cost (to the rider or to the city to provide it).  I'd rather walk, ride my bike, or drive my own vehicle.

The trolleys themselves are pretty dingy on the inside and I feel like most people ride it out of a sense of "it's what you do if you're in the know" rather than any real convenience.  Hell, the last time I rode it it would have been much faster, and wasted less gas, for me and the others on our trolley to just drive our own cars home.

I think one of the main reasons there is trolley service is due to the lack of parking in those areas - five points, shoppes of Avondale and park/king especially.

You have not been following the forums. There is plenty of parking in all those areas. I suspect the reason the trolley isn't successful is that people would rather the ease of driving. As Urban as we want to be, thats just the way it is here. You have to change peoples opinion on transit/transportation first. Thats the hard part. 

Really? Plenty of parking? In the Shoppes of Avondale? On King Street. In Five Points? Then why all the fuss anytime someone wants to put in a new business. One issue - PARKING.

[Bridges]

You have not been following the forums. There is plenty of parking in all those areas. I suspect the reason the trolley isn't successful is that people would rather the ease of driving. As Urban as we want to be, thats just the way it is here. You have to change peoples opinion on transit/transportation first. Thats the hard part. 

Really? Plenty of parking? In the Shoppes of Avondale? On King Street. In Five Points? Then why all the fuss anytime someone wants to put in a new business. One issue - PARKING.

Well, the people raising a fuss certainly like to use PARKING as their one issue....or noise...or rowdy crowds...or whatever helps them maintain the status quo.  Whether parking is as big of an issue as they state, I think that's certainly up for debate.

[Josh]

I've ridden several times over the past few months and honestly  I don't feel like it's worth the cost (to the rider or to the city to provide it).  I'd rather walk, ride my bike, or drive my own vehicle.

The trolleys themselves are pretty dingy on the inside and I feel like most people ride it out of a sense of "it's what you do if you're in the know" rather than any real convenience.  Hell, the last time I rode it it would have been much faster, and wasted less gas, for me and the others on our trolley to just drive our own cars home.

I think one of the main reasons there is trolley service is due to the lack of parking in those areas - five points, shoppes of Avondale and park/king especially.

You have not been following the forums. There is plenty of parking in all those areas. I suspect the reason the trolley isn't successful is that people would rather the ease of driving. As Urban as we want to be, thats just the way it is here. You have to change peoples opinion on transit/transportation first. Thats the hard part. 

Really? Plenty of parking? In the Shoppes of Avondale? On King Street. In Five Points? Then why all the fuss anytime someone wants to put in a new business. One issue - PARKING.

There is no issue with any of those locations if you are willing to walk one to two blocks max.

[ProjectMaximus]

Really? Plenty of parking? In the Shoppes of Avondale? On King Street. In Five Points? Then why all the fuss anytime someone wants to put in a new business. One issue - PARKING.

Because some of the people living there don't like others parking on their street. Doesn't mean there isn't parking available...just that some people don't like it.

[Know Growth]

It's Official; RA Trolley of no benefit to Growth Expansion Supporters.

Next!

[MusicMan]

Ron Chamblin, purveyor of books, and common sense.


The issue of Parking in the aforementioned areas is a straw man perpetuated by residents and business owners who feel threatened by anything new coming in. In New York the subway does not drop you of at your destination, it gets you close. A block or two from where you want to be. Sometimes 4 or 5.

[Ocklawaha]

It takes a healthy mix of collector/distributer points, consistency, community relations, advertising, punctuality, a schedule designed not just for the party, dinner or bar fly, but the store owner, late night laundry mat and somebody forgot the milk type trips. A cute faux trolley running for a single demographic on a limited scheduled is doomed, while the same operation running 20/7 will struggle eternally. The punch line of course is that if your goal is to have a successful route, it can be built crafted around a standard bus, faux trolley or BRT bus, simply set the standard for the definition of success and launch. If your goal is to build up a successful corridor into a vibrant mixed use transit district then you'll have to go with a civic investment in a fixed route system allowing, within some limitations, the city to design entire corridor. None of us should ever forget that while buses, BRT and motor coaches can and sometimes do attract 'Transit Oriented Development' (TOD) Streetcars, Light Rail, Commuter Rail are 'Development Oriented Transit.'

[mtraininjax]

Not even dancers from the Gold Club to swing from the Trolley polls can bring enough riders back. I do believe that many people are still pissed seeing Bus routes from the JTA going down Edgewood Ave, without the residents having a say-so in the matter.

A lack of trust on the part of residents has hurt the JTA steam, at least in Avondale.

[peestandingup]

I've ridden several times over the past few months and honestly  I don't feel like it's worth the cost (to the rider or to the city to provide it).  I'd rather walk, ride my bike, or drive my own vehicle.

The trolleys themselves are pretty dingy on the inside and I feel like most people ride it out of a sense of "it's what you do if you're in the know" rather than any real convenience.  Hell, the last time I rode it it would have been much faster, and wasted less gas, for me and the others on our trolley to just drive our own cars home.

I think one of the main reasons there is trolley service is due to the lack of parking in those areas - five points, shoppes of Avondale and park/king especially.

You have not been following the forums. There is plenty of parking in all those areas. I suspect the reason the trolley isn't successful is that people would rather the ease of driving. As Urban as we want to be, thats just the way it is here. You have to change peoples opinion on transit/transportation first. Thats the hard part.

Opinions are one thing, but in order for transit to be truly successful it has to be convenient & in many ways BETTER than driving. We don't seem to understand that here, as none of our transit options across the board (bus, skyway, etc) are worth a flying shit. They're unfinished, broken & erratic. Same as with cycling. If the infrastructure sucks, you're just going to drive. Period. At least those with the means to. Thats why you see a lot of the poor & misfortunate enduring our transit here, because they HAVE to. When you start getting people riding it because they want to, thats when you know you've actually got something good.

So painting a couple lines down a shoulder of a highway for cyclists or having some rinky dink trolley/bus thing rolling once a month at god knows what days or times, then wondering why no one is using these half-assed attempts, is the problem. And our leadership unfortunately seems clueless to this obvious fact, like they just crawled outta the backwoods of Macclenny or something instead of a major metropolis.

[Noone]

^PSU don't hold back. Seriously, how would you like to do a kayak loop Downtown? Just one trip and then I'd love to read about your experience. Good or bad. I'll treat at Chopstick Charley's!

[cline]

Not even dancers from the Gold Club to swing from the Trolley polls can bring enough riders back. I do believe that many people are still pissed seeing Bus routes from the JTA going down Edgewood Ave, without the residents having a say-so in the matter.

A lack of trust on the part of residents has hurt the JTA steam, at least in Avondale.

What's wrong with having a bus route down Edgewood?  There's only four stops south of Roosevelt and those are in the parks- not in front of anyones home.  Also, there's always been a bus route on Edgewood north of Roosevelt.