Is All Aboard Florida A Match For Jacksonville?

[finehoe]

...the state of Florida provided land grants and financial assistance to railroad builders...

Gregg M. Turner. A Journey into Florida Railroad History. Gainesville: University Press of Florida, 2008, ISBN 978-0-8130-3233-7.

Thank goodness there was no government interference in the economy or socialism in the 19th century.

[tufsu1]

Hmm, I don't think it's very good ridership, but what do I know.  Caltrain is a very similar single line system with over 4x the ridership.

57,500 vs 14,600 using essentially an equivalent system (single line DMU with no major DT stops) and through equivalent density down a highway corridor

Also, stops every 1-2 miles?  That's 14-28 stops between Miami/Fort Lauderdale, and dozens more to West Palm (doesn't sound like commuter rail, and if they are using DMUs, that pretty much sucks as acceleration and deceleration, loading and offloading are inefficiently slow).  They'll have to implement express trains if they want the network to be effective.  Are there enough tracks for express trains?  I'm assuming so if they're going to operate intracity rail on the same tracks.

^ 11 stops from downtown Ft. Lauderdale to downtown Miami to be exact.  And yes, I agree that it will not be a quick train.  That is why the current system will remain active and be more attractive for long distance commuters.  Also don't forget that the current line goes to Miami International Airport and that is a big draw. 

There is not room for express tracks on the coastal route.  In fact, much of the coastal corridor is just a single track today.

As to TriRail's ridership, other than CalTrain, it is the best performing single line in the country.  The stats link I provided shows that there are 24 commuter rail systems in the U.S. and that TriRail ranks 9th for passengers per mile.  So yes, I stand by my challenge of your statement that "there isn't much ridership" on TriRail.   

[simms3]

^^^Except that despite having 11 stops, it will still be quicker to get from Fort Lauderdale to Miami on the AAF tracks.  Having ridden Tri-Rail from the FTL airport to DT Miami, it's painfully slow (and it was an empty train when I was on it).  The transfer to metrorail takes a while as headways aren't ideal, and then there are all the metrorail stops along the way, as well.

I still think Tri-Rail on AAF tracks will see higher ridership.  It connects the downtowns and goes through high population density!  There's no reason for it not to see higher ridership.  Similarly, Caltrain is attempting to link to Downtown San Francisco, and thus more effectively connect with BART and Muni Metro (as well as the regional bus agencies).  It's always better when the downtown areas are a stop/endpoint (as with the current systems in NYC, Chicago, Boston, LA, and Philly).

Also, and part of the reason I think commuter rail would be a waste in Jax, most of these systems are relatively pointless.  Being a "top 10" commuter rail system in the US is like saying you went to one of the 10 best colleges in Utah.  It's rather meaningless when your overall competition is the Nashville Star, Austin Capital Metrorail, New Mexico Rail Runner Express, etc etc

The only legitimate/complete systems are New York's, Chicago's, Philly's, and Boston's.

[tufsu1]

sorry simms but you're changing your story.  You originally stated that AAF would effectively replace TriRail.  Lakelander and I showed that is not the case.

You forget that there is this new little thing called the Miami Intermodal Center, making TriRail to Miami's airport a pretty attractive service.  And yes, MetroRail goes there now too.

http://www.micdot.com/

[Ocklawaha]

...the state of Florida provided land grants and financial assistance to railroad builders...

Gregg M. Turner. A Journey into Florida Railroad History. Gainesville: University Press of Florida, 2008, ISBN 978-0-8130-3233-7.

Thank goodness there was no government interference in the economy or socialism in the 19th century.

Contrary to the short version of the story, IE: railroads got free land, the truth is the land grants were credit extended to allow the railroads to leverage their value to finance and build lines into unpopulated territories. As a result of all of that 'free' land the railroads were required to carry the US Mail, government freight, military, in short, ANY government movement free of charge. This was capitalism of the first order, in 1940 the US Supreme Court of Claims, estimated that the railroads had repaid the 'land grants' as much as 900 times.

Here's a page from the Congressional inquiry:



Gregg simply followed the school textbooks and stopped short of telling the whole story. Many of the grants in Florida were outright revoked after the track had been laid under a Tallahassee order stating the state grants were illegal.

I cannot in good conscience fault you for this belief or even some research as the railroads have been catching hell for this for over 100 years. The trouble is, even with all of their capitalist power, they were unable to get the message out.

[Ocklawaha]

sorry simms but you're changing your story.  You originally stated that AAF would effectively replace TriRail.  Lakelander and I showed that is not the case.

You forget that there is this new little thing called the Miami Intermodal Center, making TriRail to Miami's airport a pretty attractive service.  And yes, MetroRail goes there now too.

http://www.micdot.com/

Sims, this is like saying the Bayshore will replace all traffic on highway 101... Not going to happen. Many suburbanites live west of the CSX tracks, in fact whole cities are west of the tracks (Coral Springs, etc.). Meanwhile the FEC is the older line having arrived in the 1890's rather then the 1920's, and is more of a city center to city center type railroad. The traffic mix will be different, but all in all, the AAF-Amtrak customer is not a Joe Lunch Bucket, rushing to get to work.

[simms3]

sorry simms but you're changing your story.  You originally stated that AAF would effectively replace TriRail.  Lakelander and I showed that is not the case.

You forget that there is this new little thing called the Miami Intermodal Center, making TriRail to Miami's airport a pretty attractive service.  And yes, MetroRail goes there now too.

http://www.micdot.com/

No, I didn't realize Tri-Rail was going to operate on AAF's tracks, but clearly since they are, they see a reason to, and it still stands that effectively it could "replace" the other Tri-Rail (which is purely figurative...with the investment in Tri-Rail, obviously they aren't deconstructing it and it does serve a purpose).  AAF's Miami station will be very close to Metrorail, as well (where both lines converge offering better headways).  Not inconceivable that people can use Tri-Rail on AAF's tracks to also reach Metrorail, and thus the Intermodal terminal.

[finehoe]

This was capitalism of the first order, in 1940 the US Supreme Court of Claims, estimated that the railroads had repaid the 'land grants' as much as 900 times.

And all citizens/businesses had an equal chance at obtaining this government assistance, right?

[JeffreyS]

...the state of Florida provided land grants and financial assistance to railroad builders...

Gregg M. Turner. A Journey into Florida Railroad History. Gainesville: University Press of Florida, 2008, ISBN 978-0-8130-3233-7.

Thank goodness there was no government interference in the economy or socialism in the 19th century.

Contrary to the short version of the story, IE: railroads got free land, the truth is the land grants were credit extended to allow the railroads to leverage their value to finance and build lines into unpopulated territories. As a result of all of that 'free' land the railroads were required to carry the US Mail, government freight, military, in short, ANY government movement free of charge. This was capitalism of the first order, in 1940 the US Supreme Court of Claims, estimated that the railroads had repaid the 'land grants' as much as 900 times.

Here's a page from the Congressional inquiry:



Gregg simply followed the school textbooks and stopped short of telling the whole story. Many of the grants in Florida were outright revoked after the track had been laid under a Tallahassee order stating the state grants were illegal.

I cannot in good conscience fault you for this belief or even some research as the railroads have been catching hell for this for over 100 years. The trouble is, even with all of their capitalist power, they were unable to get the message out.

Finehoe did not characterize the land grants as gifts but as government interference.  You seem to have proved that positive point.

[Ocklawaha]

Oklahoma Territory 1889 Land Run

Yes, they did, note the famous Oklahoma Land Runs... FREE LAND! The Homestead Act was good in nearly every state and it still exists in remote areas, especially Alaska. The lineal grants such as the railroads got were also extended to roads (which were virtually all private decent ones in the 19Th Century and known as Pikes) Otto Perry was the most famous road builder of the Rockies, constructing toll roads throughout the mountains for example. The canals, Erie, Ohio etc. were all built with the same deal. In fact the order granting this to the railroads was basically a carbon copy of the previous modes.

[Ocklawaha]

Finehoe did not characterize the land grants as gifts but as government interference.  You seem to have proved that positive point.

No would I consider it interference if you went down to the surplus yard south of NAS JAX and bought a truck for $100 bucks. Of course you could probably get a deal on 200 surplus trucks with no cash involved, just carry the mail in those big trailers for free for 50 to 100 years. That's neither interference or a free gift, its simply a decent business deal agreed on by both parties. 

[finehoe]

That's neither interference or a free gift, its simply a decent business deal agreed on by both parties.

Shorter Ock:  If it's something I like, gummit interference in the "free" market is a-ok, but if it's something I don't like it's Socialism.

[Ocklawaha]

Oklahoma Territory 1889 Land Run

BTW, Did y'all know that 'The Sooners' were cheaters that snuck into the federal lands on penalty of being shot on sight, and established claims and houses illegally? On surprised member of a land run family found a creek with a cabin and crops 3 feet tall along the creek bottoms. WTF? The cabin owner told him; Got here this morning, richest damn land I ever saw!'

Just like a bunch of 'SOONERS' to cheat! (Okay, so I couldn't resist that one!) GO POKES! GO POKES! OSU!

[Ocklawaha]

Sorry for the delay, had to pick up Lil' Robert.

No Finehoe, if it was Socialism the government would have built, owned and operated (or at least tried to) all of the railroads, canals and pikes. The farms would have been private but micro managed 'for the greater good,' by Uncle Sam. If Communist the goverment would own everything including thought.

[Ocklawaha]

All Aboard Florida would be a great fit if:

The City would get off of the Prime Osborn immediately and move whatever convention activity, trade shows etc... to the Arena until a proper convention center can be built.

Form a Public/Private partnership with AAF/JTA/COJ/INTERCITY MOTOR COACH operators as a new 'Jacksonville Terminal Company.'

Follow Milwaukee or Denver's example in the creation of a compact, single stop, single station.

Allow the new Terminal Company to launch on a 'new downtown' of mixed use with street level retail, restaurants and apartments/condo's/office towers. Become the catalyst for action.

Continue to focus JTA'S energies on expansion of fixed rail (monorail or elevated streetcar) across downtown per Husein Cumber's  comments. Focus on getting over the FEC in San Marco, getting into Brooklyn @ Forrest and reaching the stadium. If a streetcar conversion took place, these could be built as grade level streetcar from Brooklyn South, FEC south into San Marco/San Jose as well as north of State Street into Springfield. BRT at a more serious level should take place both north and east of downtown, east of San Marco and Blanding (as a freeway flyer between Kent Campus and Downtown on Roosevelt-Connector/I-10/I-95.

If for whatever reason the City simply must keep the clumsy Prime as a Convention Center, then build a multi level garage on the property west of the old burned out depot, connect this with a continuing second level concourse to the rail platforms, and a Central Station at the Skyway location... All on the second or Skyway level. Escalators and elevators take passengers below the current Skyway station to JTA, and west of the station for Intercity Motor Coaches.

Create/RFP for a mid rise hotel serving the station and convention center.