Living Downtown as a Millennial

[edjax]

^^Just wow at the ineptness of our city leaders.  Also I read one article about the Shipyards and the comments from the Khan side was they would not do anything until the Berkman 2 fiasco was addressed, which I don't blame them at all. So it looks like the city just shot itself in both feet with one bullet, they continue to impress.

[jaxjaguar]

Good grief... Berkman 2 is just another reason to get out while I can. Who knows, maybe Khan will help them with the financing... Then again he helped the Trio & Barnett developers and guess what... They're sitting stagnant too, 6 months from when they were supposed to be completed.

Also, has anyone else noticed how the city just gave up on the  ADA sidewalk corners? There are 3-4 corners that they tore up, but just left bare... So now we've had several dangerous drop off dirt corners for about 2 months. My gf nearly killed herself last night, going over the handle bars, while we were riding bikes because she didn't see the drop off... 

[simms3]

^^^Likewise, Jacksonville, for being 1,000 ppsm and for being a "new" city is about as dirty as it gets.  Just my opinion. 

agreed, it is just an opinion.  and somewhat misleading at that.  You can't say Jax. has 1000 persons per square mile and NYC has 200,000.  Sorry, that is simply not true. 

And as for downtown sidewalks being dirty, are you going off your experience living here years ago?  I ask because DVI has been regularly pressure washing them for the last 5+ years.

Well much of Manhattan is 200,000+ people per square mile.  Including Central Park and all of the office districts, the whole thing averages to 70,000 ppsm, but commands a daytime population of office workers, tourists, and shoppers that easily brings it 175,000+ppsm, and a nighttime population including visitors/tourists staying in hotels of 90,000 ppsm.  The weighted average density would be much higher, certainly including office workers and visitors would be north of 200,000 ppsm.  Excluding, would still be north of 100,000 ppsm.

Conversely, Jax averages out to about 1,100 ppsm and peaks in areas around 5-6,000 ppsm in places like Riverside.  I'm sure the weighted average of Jacksonville's density would be around 2,500-3,500 ppsm.

So the difference between Manhattan and Jax is still night and day no matter how you try to poke around - Manhattan is by far the densest place in North America, and yet it is quite clean.  I think that is the point?  Much of Jax is kind of ratty, like much of greater New York is,  but DT Jax is a lot rattier looking than Manhattan.  Those are the comparisons.

And as far as opinion goes, I visit.  I will be there in a couple weeks for a wedding, as a matter of fact.  I also post online and I live elsewhere where people ask me about where I'm from.  I wouldn't poo poo my opinion or those of others because you have a beef with them.  Half my problem with Jax and why I got the hell out of dodge at 18 was the people - everyone I know there thinks it's just hunky dory which is why status quo is so maintained.  It's like people have never left the cocoon, or left without blinders on.

I've been going back and forth between playing devil's advocate and agreeing with the OP, because I've never lived DT and can't tell from these posts how bad it is (I've certainly stayed downtown for a weekend at a friend's here and there...desolate is what I would call it, but not necessarily dirty).  Homeless, shit on sidewalks, and parking tickets are usually par for the course for living in an "urban" environment, however, I then go back to what I've seen visiting smaller cities that can be compared to Jax, and usually I've been WAYYYY more impressed elsewhere than when I've come home and looked around from a similar lens.

So I know there's work to do, and I'm glad to hear DVI power washes the sidewalks, but it may not be enough.  There's just something missing from downtown...it gives off the deserted feel, which if combined with ill maintained sidewalks (from an actual concrete perspective), visible homeless, weeds, etc just doesn't sit well.  It makes it appear dirtier than it actually is, which is probably why our peers understand that they need to give off the appearance of literally being scrubbed down, and why they appear cleaner and nicer (and are doing better jobs at attracting residents and tourists to their downtowns).

[tufsu1]

Also, has anyone else noticed how the city just gave up on the  ADA sidewalk corners? There are 3-4 corners that they tore up, but just left bare... So now we've had several dangerous drop off dirt corners for about 2 months. My gf nearly killed herself last night, going over the handle bars, while we were riding bikes because she didn't see the drop off... 

the City has been in the process of updating them continuously for several months.  They did two by my house last week.  I suggest calling Public Works and letting them know about the unfinished ones near you.

[tufsu1]

Well much of Manhattan is 200,000+ people per square mile.  Including Central Park and all of the office districts, the whole thing averages to 70,000 ppsm, but commands a daytime population of office workers, tourists, and shoppers that easily brings it 175,000+ppsm, and a nighttime population including visitors/tourists staying in hotels of 90,000 ppsm.  The weighted average density would be much higher, certainly including office workers and visitors would be north of 200,000 ppsm.  Excluding, would still be north of 100,000 ppsm.

Conversely, Jax averages out to about 1,100 ppsm and peaks in areas around 5-6,000 ppsm in places like Riverside.  I'm sure the weighted average of Jacksonville's density would be around 2,500-3,500 ppsm.

well if you're going to count office workers and other employees for NYC, it would be fair to do the same for Jacksonville....basically the downtown area is about 3 square miles...includes 4000 residents and visitors plus about 50,000 workers.  So that would make density in downtown Jax. something like 17,000-18,000 ppsm.

[simms3]

The comparison still stands.  Manhattan is almost the size of pre-consolidation Jacksonville.  Downtown, like you said, is 3 square miles at best, and still doesn't reach the average residential-only density of the entire city limits of San Francisco (47 sq miles, including about 15 sq mi of parks and industrial wasteland), or the large central part of Chicago/Philadelphia (similar in size to SF), even with daytime population/visitors, etc.

23 sq mi Manhattan, despite its insane densities (nobody in their right mind would try to put downtown Jax's population density, even with daytime pop., in the same league) in 2014 presents very very well.  Very clean (smells from trash, maybe, but otherwise as clean as 200,000 ppsm can be).  Downtown Jax doesn't present so well.  Maybe a bit unfair, but DT Jax is less impressive, to me (and clearly so many others), than many of its peers in the Sunbelt/Midwest/NE.

Peers being a laundry list, such as Providence, Charlotte, Austin, Nashville, Orlando, Omaha, Oklahoma City, Salt Lake City, Denver to a degree, Portland to a degree, Charleston to a degree, Tampa, Indianapolis, Kansas City, etc etc.

Making strides?  Could be - though it seems to be running parallel to general population increases to Duval County as a whole (in the nearly 10 years since I've been gone, Duval County has increased in population by ~5%, and DT is maybe 5% better than when I left).  In our peer networks, some of those cities have even slower growth than Duval County, however, their downtowns are often 20-50% better than they were just 10 years ago.  I think that's the key difference.  There's more of a focus on "downtown" elsewhere than has occurred in Jacksonville (not to mention NE FL's actual population growth, despite being in no-state-income sunny FL, has really really slowed over the last 10-15 years).  It's definitely a national trend that isn't hitting DT Jax as hard as nearly everywhere else.

Jacksonville's resources are obviously spread thin (given the population density of the city as a whole, even in the most populated parts).  However, the same can be said for a few other cities (OKC, Nashville, Houston, Charlotte, etc).  I wonder if those cities have different policies in place to put more resources into their cores and leave their hinterlands up to more complete private investment?  I don't know the answer, just pondering.

There's no point in making excuses, Tufsu, and trying to argue with [literally everyone] that DT Jax needs work.  Is it as bad as JaxJaguar is making it out to be to live in?  Perhaps.  Perhaps not.  My opinion is that being "somewhat pioneering" (not in the Springfield sense, but in that direction), I would give DT Jax a try and enjoy living there IF there weren't unnecessary hassles.  The kinds of hassles I can put up with, and must put up with, in a NY or SF are not what I want in Jax, given the differences in those cities.  I want cleanliness, bars, amenities, etc.  I want a Denver/Charlotte atmosphere in a "new" city like Jax.  Not a Tenderloin SF atmosphere (which is only tolerable in SF because it's SF).

[tufsu1]

There's no point in making excuses, Tufsu, and trying to argue with [literally everyone] that DT Jax needs work. 

I agree that there is much to improve about downtown Jacksonville.  That said, I have lived there for more than 8 years and still think the positives far outweigh the negatives.  Sure there is more of an urban vibe in other cities, but the cost of living downtown is also substantially higher in many of those places.

Would you agree, that while substantially better than Jax. in may ways, there is room for cities like NYC and SF to improve as well?

[BoldBoyOfTheSouth]

Comparing Jacksonville to NYC is not fair and are just not comparable.

Compare Jacksonville to Tampa, St Pete, Orlando and Charlotte is fair.

In some cases compare JAX to Miami or Atlanta as Atlanta is spread out and dealing with a lot of conservative thinking or Miami that had a downtown that was a down and out ghost town at 5:30 pm as recently as ten years ago.

JAX can learn and emulate from the turn around of downtown Atlanta and Miami.

JAX can learn and emulate the successes of downtown St Petersburg and Orlando.

[BoldBoyOfTheSouth]

I agree that downtown JAX is often desolate and even when there is life on West Adams and Laura, it's a ghost town two blocks away on the average Tuesday night.

Downtown is not dirty. To be dirty would require people to be making it dirty.

[simms3]

There's no point in making excuses, Tufsu, and trying to argue with [literally everyone] that DT Jax needs work. 

I agree that there is much to improve about downtown Jacksonville.  That said, I have lived there for more than 8 years and still think the positives far outweigh the negatives.  Sure there is more of an urban vibe in other cities, but the cost of living downtown is also substantially higher in many of those places.

Would you agree, that while substantially better than Jax. in may ways, there is room for cities like NYC and SF to improve as well?

Yes clearly.  I think the original point was that DT Jax is relatively dirty and ill maintained, despite being "newer" and dealing with far fewer overwhelming "people pressures" as dealt with in much denser environments.  In fact, when I mentioned:

NYC, for being 200,000 people per square mile, is about as clean as it gets.

Bingo

It was followed up by a response.  There are comparisons to be made to any city.  Comparing to Manhattan is basically in the vain attempt to point out that one of the world's most dense/old urban environments still appears cleaner, often safer than one of the world's least dense/newest urban environments.  Not to compare Manhattan itself to DT Jax.

And yes, everyone in SF basically acknowledges there are LOTS of things to improve in either SF or NYC/Manhattan.  There are affordability issues that are in some respects as bad as the sort of opposite conditions that exist in Detroit.  SF, as I've said numerous times, is a dirty dirty city filled with the country's most blatantly horrific homeless problem (which it's known for).  It's a constant discussion.

But that still plays to my point.  I can swallow living in a dirty, dense, seedy area of SF in shoebox for $$$ because it's in SF.  The only thing possibly better in this country for true big city urban living would be Manhattan or maybe Chicago.  In Jax, why should I put up with some of the crap I must in SF?  There aren't NEARLY as many redeeming factors, so everything must be relatively perfect, and for less.  I think that's the bottom line.  That's what Jacksonville's true peers have realized.

It's one thing to attract the Springfield types, the real pioneers, etc.  There are only so many.  But to attract the white collar work force that will work those DT jobs and support more DT businesses (there are more such people in any given city), that requires providing a more cleaned up, perceptively safe, and enjoyable atmosphere.

[I-10east]

I agree that downtown JAX is often desolate and even when there is life on West Adams and Laura, it's a ghost town two blocks away on the average Tuesday night.

Downtown is not dirty. To be dirty would require people to be making it dirty.

I agree. It's funny sometimes that people say things out of the blue, like a new meme; All of a sudden DT is 'dirty' yeah okay...Sounds like flinging crap on the ceiling to see if it sticks syndrome to me...

[downtownbrown]

^^Just wow at the ineptness of our city leaders.  Also I read one article about the Shipyards and the comments from the Khan side was they would not do anything until the Berkman 2 fiasco was addressed, which I don't blame them at all. So it looks like the city just shot itself in both feet with one bullet, they continue to impress.

Oh, and while we're at it, City Council was supposed to approve funding to fix the Liberty Street hole in August.  They have deferred the legislation several times since then. The city is suing the insurance company, but for a while it seemed like the Council would put on the big boy pants and fix it themselves.  Not so much.  BTW, April will be the 3rd anniversary of a hole in a core road, and the road shut off to traffic.  Unbelievable.

Hard not to feel like all of the momentum created over the last year has ground to a halt.  Feeling more and more like we are held hostage by Khan, City Council, and the Mayor's office.  No movement on Trio, the Landing, Berkman, Liberty Street, or Shipyards.  Nothing. Nada. Zip. 

[simms3]

I agree that downtown JAX is often desolate and even when there is life on West Adams and Laura, it's a ghost town two blocks away on the average Tuesday night.

Downtown is not dirty. To be dirty would require people to be making it dirty.

I agree. It's funny sometimes that people say things out of the blue, like a new meme; All of a sudden DT is 'dirty' yeah okay...Sounds like flinging crap on the ceiling to see if it sticks syndrome to me...

Pre-consolidation Jax as a whole appears very rundown, and in places quite dirty to me.  I know I'm not alone in thinking or voicing that opinion.

Also, as people have pointed out, there is an utter lack of oversight and maintenance downtown, and a homeless problem.  Combine the two with vacant overgrown lots, an abundance of random chain link fences, negligent landlords who have no incentive to put more capital into their buildings/lots, etc and you have a "dirty" looking downtown.  Not that hard to fathom, but I guess your perspective, like so many in Jacksonville, is Jacksonville-only.

Go to Denver, highlighted by MJ today, and you'll see an opposite world.  Very clean city.  I would go so far as to call it pristine.  Yet still interesting.  Charlotte = clean, but perhaps a little uninteresting.

[jaxjaguar]

Not to mention N Jefferson Street and Broad Street. Will those ever be fixed? Those are probably some of the worst roads & sidewalks in the entire city and they're right next to the Courthouse. My car bottoms out on Jefferson almost every time I'm driving to Publix. And my friend blew a tire in on of the massive pot holes on Broad trying to get to my place.

[thelakelander]

Jefferson and Broad will both be completely rebuilt by JTA soon. This work will be done as a part of the BRT project.