Jacksonville Landing: The Civic Council Speaks

[thelakelander]

IMO the Landing land in front of the Wells Fargo Building should have a height restriction (I believe that Ken alluded to that earlier).

It does. The height restriction is 75'.

[thelakelander]

I don't even remember what the Landing was like before Sleiman bought it. I remember it was a lot better, though.

It was in worse shape than what it is now. The Landing's glory days were well over before this century started.

[Tacachale]

I don't even remember what the Landing was like before Sleiman bought it. I remember it was a lot better, though.

It was in worse shape than what it is now.

MUCH worse.

[thelakelander]

The Civic Council has asked for community engagement and suggestions for the Landing. Clearly, most agree that Sleiman's design wasn't up to snuff, with lackluster architecture, stingy retail space, and those horrible roads running through the center and separating a predominantly residential Landing from the leftover scraps adjacent greenspace.

With the original plan out of the way for now, what does everyone think that a redesigned Landing should include in order to be, as the JCC says, "the unique downtown venue that our citizens deserve," "the downtown destination that reflects the true nature of the city," and "the single most critical project in regards to transforming downtown Jacksonville." What should it not include.

Mixed use?

Ideas for layout or architecture?

Any similar sites around the country (or world) that you think should be looked at for inspiration?

Here's what came out of the APA's Jacksonville Landing 2009 charrette:













more background and graphics: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-dec-re-imagining-the-jacksonville-landing#.VADwFfldViY

[Keith-N-Jax]

That was a better designed, certainly need to keep the courtyard and river front dinning.

[Anti redneck]

I don't even remember what the Landing was like before Sleiman bought it. I remember it was a lot better, though.

It was in worse shape than what it is now.

MUCH worse.

How was it worse than now? How is it better than before?

[Wacca Pilatka]

I don't even remember what the Landing was like before Sleiman bought it. I remember it was a lot better, though.

It was in worse shape than what it is now.

MUCH worse.

How was it worse than now? How is it better than before?

It was less of an activity center in the couple of years before Sleiman took over.  He's programmed the courtyard better, added the big screen, and added a couple of successful night spots like Mavericks.  Immediately pre-Sleiman, when the mix was more oriented toward retail and less toward dining and nightlife and courtyard entertainment, it was distinctly more desolate in feel than it is today, if not in number of tenants or percentage of occupied space.

I also think it's a plus that he has added a few tenants with distinctive and distinctly local products.  Love, love, love River City Gourmet Shoppe, and it's nice to be able to buy high-quality photos of the city, glass etchings, etc. from the artists who have Landing businesses now.  To me, that's truer to the concept of a festival marketplace than still seeing a Waldenbooks.

[tufsu1]

I just jumped ship to a new firm, and am very happy and challenged...I'd be way too expensive, too If Toney is going to hire associates and analysts and create a new platform, he shouldn't hire associates/analysts from NYC, SF, DC, or Boston.  He can find a talent pool in Atlanta or Charlotte or Houston or Dallas with a more equivalent pay grade and a higher chance of moving to Jax

wow...you must have a very impressive 5-7 year resume

[Tacachale]

I don't even remember what the Landing was like before Sleiman bought it. I remember it was a lot better, though.

It was in worse shape than what it is now.

MUCH worse.

How was it worse than now? How is it better than before?

It was less of an activity center in the couple of years before Sleiman took over.  He's programmed the courtyard better, added the big screen, and added a couple of successful night spots like Mavericks.  Immediately pre-Sleiman, when the mix was more oriented toward retail and less toward dining and nightlife and courtyard entertainment, it was distinctly more desolate in feel than it is today, if not in number of tenants or percentage of occupied space.

I also think it's a plus that he has added a few tenants with distinctive and distinctly local products.  Love, love, love River City Gourmet Shoppe, and it's nice to be able to buy high-quality photos of the city, glass etchings, etc. from the artists who have Landing businesses now.  To me, that's truer to the concept of a festival marketplace than still seeing a Waldenbooks.

Well put. They've done a good job keeping the courtyard-fronting spaces open and periodic activity in the courtyard. It hadn't really "worked" in many years before that.

[Rob68]

I do hope that if ANY public money put into this is returned..profits from the landing should be put back into the city and not into sleaz mans pocket...im sick of seeing community cash end up in private pockets and if theres no oversight on him we are the stupid ones..personnally id rather see the landing owned by the community and not a money hungry  developer...NO MORE PUBLIC CASH for the landing unless we have a stake with returns.

[simms3]

I just jumped ship to a new firm, and am very happy and challenged...I'd be way too expensive, too If Toney is going to hire associates and analysts and create a new platform, he shouldn't hire associates/analysts from NYC, SF, DC, or Boston.  He can find a talent pool in Atlanta or Charlotte or Houston or Dallas with a more equivalent pay grade and a higher chance of moving to Jax

wow...you must have a very impressive 5-7 year resume

Nice jab, but meaningless.  And yes, I've worked hard on getting where I am, people in my boat aren't turning around and moving back to the small towns they came from, just yet (if ever in my case, sadly).  Does it not make sense to you that I'm way more expensive and difficult to "move" in SF than in Atlanta?  That's not being snobby, but I'm not taking a 50% pay cut just to move cross country to a cheaper city.  Lots of people in Atlanta might consider a 10% pay cut to move to a slightly cheaper city that has a beach and a river.

Toney has a couple of options here, and he's acting on one:

1) Make this more of a multifamily deal, develop it, lease it, and get out (unless he's looking for a coupon, but I think he's grown impatient and wants a good return).  The retail/public space does become more of a "chore" and afterthought, which is obvious up until this point.  Then return to what he does best.

In this case, he's essentially hired a very expensive, very knowledgeable multifamily consultant to get this deal done (and maybe Toney gets horny for the kinds of things that come with developing multi - like working with Fannie/Freddie as lenders, return or even yield potentials, similar formulaic development parameters, and he keeps Tom and becomes the "apartment king" around Jax)

2) Really make a go of it.  Tackle the challenge that the Landing isn't really supposed to be a "multi" deal even though the city has imo stupidly mandated that there be resi.  Focus on the retail and public aspect of it, maybe throw in premier and/or boutique office on 1-2 floors above, which I would much rather see here than resi.  Multi becomes more of the afterthought, frankly, because it's a little bit easier in this situation and just allows the damn thing to more easily pencil out and receive financing.

Develop the Landing and then operate it as part of your portfolio - really make it the marquee of a new platform, one where Sleiman Enterprises does complex deals and either becomes a great partner and receives fees and promotes on interesting deals with more sophisticated capital groups who would consider coming to town knowing they have a knowledgeable experienced partner in Sleiman, or even becomes more of the LP and  operates funds or larger separate accounts for more sophisticated investors with more $$$.

In this case, you have a multi expert, but you got nothin else.  If you want a platform whereby you're doing more complex deals and partnering with more sophisticated RE groups, you need a couple of analysts, an associate or two, and another VP level guy who has more retail or office experience, maybe a generalist.


All I was saying is that this setup rarely if ever exists in smaller cities like Jax because complex deals don't happen frequently, and if they do, it's outside "big city" firms that do them.  Usually a firm out of Atlanta, or similar, will swoop in and redevelop the Landing, using a Sleiman himself as a local partner in a JV to help navigate local political/regulatory waters and leverage relationships (clearly Toney is a fail at this so far).

[iMarvin]

Seeing as how the Landing is basically THE gathering place for all special moments and events in Jacksonville, I think that aspect of it should be kept but greatly enhanced. The courtyard is pretty small and feels closed in so opening it up to Laura St makes sense. Hogan St should also be closed to connect the Landing with the Times-Union Center and add additional park/gathering space.

If the Landing is gonna be demolished, another iconic structure should take its place. Something like Times Square South in Atlanta would be pretty cool. All the video boards and bright lights alone could cause the new Landing to be successful. It'd be something people want to see and people would come downtown just for that.

[IrvAdams]

Whatever is built there it should be:

River-oriented, bar and restaurant loaded, with a large crowd-friendly courtyard and nearby ample parking.

Please don't destroy the main purpose of the Landing.

[Bill Hoff]

FYI: http://www.wokv.com/news/news/local/jacksonville-landing-renovations-no-longer-main-co/nhTSf/


To make the change happen, Toney Sleiman with Sleiman Enterprises was seeking $11.8 million from the City. While the Mayor included that in his budget proposal as a project for which the City would borrow money to complete, the Finance Committee cut any new borrowing authorization.

Sleiman says with 49 years left on the lease, he's still working other avenues for funding, but is now moving forward.

"I'm still going to work on it, but it's not my main concern right now," he says.

Sleiman tells us he's focusing now instead on his main business, shopping centers.

"I'm getting out there and working on a lot of shopping center deals," he says.

A special committee looking at capital projects and borrowing is still meeting, although the budget was approved early this morning. The chance of having the funding for this project restored this year, however, is not high because of the large bill and the Council's unwillingness this year to take on an increase in debt.

[thelakelander]

Well that was a quick change in priority!