Jacksonville Landing: The Civic Council Speaks

[marty904]

The Jacksonville Landing was originally designed and built by the Rouse Company whom also designed/built the Bayside Marketplace in Miami.  If you've ever been there, you know that it's an amazing place.  I, for one, would be super happy to see a design just like that.
https://www.google.com/search?q=bayside+marketplace+miami&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Tm8AVK7hK8SxggS5mILQDQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1439&bih=707

[finehoe]

The Jacksonville Landing was originally designed and built by the Rouse Company whom also designed/built the Bayside Marketplace in Miami.  If you've ever been there, you know that it's an amazing place.  I, for one, would be super happy to see a design just like that.

Miami commissioners signed off Thursday on a 99-year deal with the operators of Bayside Marketplace and the developer of SkyRise Miami to refurbish the rundown retail and entertainment center and build a 1,000-foot observation tower on the bay.

"Bayside is 1970s thinking executed in the 1980s,'' said Miami Commissioner Marc Sarnoff, whose district includes downtown. "It's time for Bayside to come into the year 2015. If you want an extension, you need to upgrade your facility substantially.''

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/11/20/3767826/developer-plans-1000-foot-bayfront.html#storylink=cpy

[finehoe]

hmm.  I wonder why no one has told them that observation towers are so 1990s?

Maybe not.

Breathtaking views rise to unprecedented heights for the Washington, D.C. area. A graceful presence of steel and glass, capped by a dramatic observation deck

http://www.centralplace.com/

[thelakelander]

^That's an actual functional building (a decent one, btw)  with an observation level. Basically, the 42nd floor of BOA, The top of the JEA Building, or the balcony level in the old Courthouse Annex that everyone wants to demolish now. A far cry from the 1960s Goerge Jetson needle debated here (which ultimately was proven to be unpractical and vanished away). 

[thelakelander]

Lol. Khan's not my sugar daddy. I'm still not sold on the dream of the shipyards being the big one trick DT revitalization pony many view it to be. 

[Dog Walker]

Tower's obsolete!?  Beg to differ.

https://www.google.com/search?q=cn+tower+toronto

The CN Tower in Toronto is a huge tourist destination.  Besides restaurants with fantastic views you can test your fear of heights by walking out onto glass floors on one of the observation decks that are over 1000' up.  Took me ten minutes to work up the nerve. 

A 1000' tower in Miami, you could probable see Bimini on a clear day and the view of the Keys and Biscayne Bay would be spectacular.

[tufsu1]

unpractical = not owned by Khan.

If it was practical (read profitable) I think Khan would still consider it.

As to Dog Walker's post above, most of us weren't saying that observation towers are obsolete.  If there's a good view, then the desire will always be there.  We just pointed out that the desire in Jax. can easily be met using the top floor of the existing Bank of America tower.  There's already a cafeteria/lounge up there and virtually nobody knows it.

[simms3]

Jacksonville is not a city for an observation tower.  Also, the developer of the tower in Miami is a rich man horny for that kind of deal.  Maybe it will work, but I don't think it's 100% based in reality - there are some hormones associated.  I've seen it time and time again.

Observation towers are sort of in the Ferris Wheel camp.  Most can now agree, with all the ferris wheels out there, that they haven't met expectations in most places.  Unless he can get that operator out of Europe (who now operates the deck in the JHC in Chicago), I don't see smooth sailing.

No offense to Jacksonville, but it's one of the most boring "nothing to see" cityscapes in the world.  Miami is not.


Back to reality and on to the Landing:

Sleiman

said he and others visited other cities — Miami, Atlanta, Charlotte, N.C., and Louisville, Ky. — to see what they've done downtown.

http://members.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2014-08-23/story/exclusive-jacksonville-landing-owners-propose-demolition-new-vision

That quote scares me.  Also, he signed on a Post/former Weeks executive to the redevelopment team.  That means he is leaning on a guy that has expertise in developing suburban apartments and flex industrial/office space, in sunbelt markets.

What Sleiman [should] do is spend up (if it even takes that...he hired a c-level executive - the CIO of all people, but any VP level guy will be cheaper no matter where he comes from) and lean on someone who has experience doing *anything* development/mixed-use/politically charged/entitlement heavy related in a real urban market, like anywhere in the NE, in CA, in Chicago, in the Pacific NW, etc.


The only significant real estate group in the SE that has large-scale experience doing urban mixed-use with a focus on retail is Jamestown Properties out of Atlanta.

http://www.jamestownlp.com/

There is no other group *based* in the SE that has the applicable track record that Jamestown has (and Jamestown's CIO and COO office in NYC, where Jamestown's primary investment market is).  Toney should have poached someone there.  They have in-house construction expertise, in-house design expertise, in-house capital markets guys, in-house development guys, an in-house creative department that is un-rivaled in real estate in the sunbelt, and frankly it's probably a top 3-5 in the entire industry nationally (their creative/marketing that is).

If Toney swept through Atlanta, and all he could join forces with was a Post guy, then I think we can gauge where he prefers to see this go (he wants a piece of the multifamily pie!).  But if he wanted to truly overcome the challenge of repositioning downtown's most centric/pivotal/arguably important piece of real estate by turning it into a sustainable and unique attraction for tourists & locals alike, he should have hired someone who who has experience with those particular challenges.


I only say this both as someone intimately familiar with the real estate industry, and as someone familiar with Atlanta-based real estate firms, including Jamestown (and Post to a degree).  As CIO of one of the most successful apartment development firms in the country, with a fair amount of recent urban infill projects, Tom is no slouch and is certainly one of the smartest guys in real estate.  But real estate is a big world handled by only a few people, and thus when most professionals get to the point Tom is at, they have developed a niche expertise.  In Tom's case, he certainly understands real estate finance and development principles, but mainly how they apply to multifamily.

He doesn't have an extensive background doing retail or doing urban mixed-use or trophy repositioning projects.  The proposal Toney did kick out the door, procedurally, looks like a Post [anywhere SE/TX] project.  NOT like what I envision a maximized Landing to be.

I feel there are still a lot of other RE professionals Toney, and now Tom, should meet before getting serious.  At this point, poach some associates/Jr VPs from other companies who have relevant experience.  That's what I say.  A maximized Landing could be a beast of an asset.  Enough to support a true team of professionals.  It could also be a marquee for Sleiman and a way for him to break out of NNN development and into something larger - like a fund-based model or one where he can win some separate account money for development/multifamily with Tom now working alongside him.  He shouldn't squander this opportunity by "only" leaning on Tom for this one deal, looking at it from the perspective of completing it and flipping out.  He should think BIG and long term, as a developer/operator.

My long $0.02.

[tufsu1]

^ the DIA Economic Feasibility report made it clear that multi-family residential is a big need for downtown.  Sleiman is reacting to that plan, primarily because he won't get incentives if he doesn't.  Again, the mix of uses seems fine, it is the design that needs work.

[I-10east]

IMO the Landing land in front of the Wells Fargo Building should have a height restriction (I believe that Ken alluded to that earlier). I think the WFB's flare at the bottom is very distinctive to the skyline, and whatever is built south of it should have a height restriction (two maybe three floors). The Landing's loftier section should be in front of 76 Laura.

The latest renderings (thank God was rejected) has a lop-sided ratio of stuff to do (very lacking) which is very disproportionate to all of that abundant tenant space. IMO Unity Plaza/Brooklyn etc will have a much better ratio with stuff to do there.   

[Charles Hunter]

<snip>
What Sleiman [should] do is spend up (if it even takes that...he hired a c-level executive - the CIO of all people, but any VP level guy will be cheaper no matter where he comes from) and lean on someone who has experience doing *anything* development/mixed-use/politically charged/entitlement heavy related in a real urban market, like anywhere in the NE, in CA, in Chicago, in the Pacific NW, etc.

<snip>

I only say this both as someone intimately familiar with the real estate industry, and as someone familiar with Atlanta-based real estate firms, including Jamestown (and Post to a degree).  As CIO of one of the most successful apartment development firms in the country, with a fair amount of recent urban infill projects, Tom is no slouch and is certainly one of the smartest guys in real estate.  But real estate is a big world handled by only a few people, and thus when most professionals get to the point Tom is at, they have developed a niche expertise.  In Tom's case, he certainly understands real estate finance and development principles, but mainly how they apply to multifamily.


My long $0.02.

simms3 - send Toney your resume' 

[Tacachale]

^ the DIA Economic Feasibility report made it clear that multi-family residential is a big need for downtown.  Sleiman is reacting to that plan, primarily because he won't get incentives if he doesn't.  Again, the mix of uses seems fine, it is the design that needs work.

Yes, the residential component is a major plus. Just not at the expense of the things that already work with the (current) Landing.

[simms3]

Not saying resi shouldn't be part of the mix, though if I had my way, I'd not require it.  Easier to make it pencil out with multifamily, however, I personally don't think this location is entirely appropriate for housing.  But that's just me.

I have many more problems with the proposal and with what's coming from Team Toney than just the design or mix of uses.  That's why I didn't focus my comments on either, but rather the team itself.

[simms3]

simms3 - send Toney your resume' 

Too content where I am, and not at the title level Toney needs.  I just jumped ship to a new firm, and am very happy and challenged...I'd be way too expensive, too If Toney is going to hire associates and analysts and create a new platform, he shouldn't hire associates/analysts from NYC, SF, DC, or Boston.  He can find a talent pool in Atlanta or Charlotte or Houston or Dallas with a more equivalent pay grade and a higher chance of moving to Jax

Toney should spend the big bucks on finding more senior level guys, like he did, but I hope he can find a complement to Tom.

[Anti redneck]

I don't even remember what the Landing was like before Sleiman bought it. I remember it was a lot better, though.