Ray family find Fort Caroline?

[RiversideLoki]

I'm not quite sure, unfortunately. I'll ask some of my local archaeologist friends and see if they know.

[spuwho]

Alot can happen in 500 years, but this one isn't making sense.

1943 aerial showing St Johns Bluff where Fort San Mateo was supposed to be and the island where they say Fort Caroline was.

As you can see there was some significant dredging that took place post 1943 to open up the Intercoastal



1856 topo shows the same islet as a small grove of trees. This was before the St. Johns was dredged.

[Ocklawaha]

The river is virtually unrecognizable today compared to that era, channels have been dredged and maintained and many if not most of the islands in our river today are simply spoil sites where bottom muck is pumped out and dumped. Even the natural islands have changed because of the currents moving around the newer ones. This will be a tough find.

Ha! Nice work, Loki.

Could be my friends but as an old military guy, I don't like the artillery angles. Consider that a cannon of that era could easily fire a shell from the Castillo in St. Augustine and hit the lighthouse, some of the larger guns had even longer ranges.
Here are some Spanish guns from the same era with the respective ranges and loads. The walls had pointed or triangular bastions so men on the wall could cover each other while under attack. The ditch or moat should slow the attacking soldiers exposing them to enfilading fire from men in the various bastions. After about the mid 1400's cannon dictated that the walls be lower and hopefully absorbent of explosions. For effective fire you need different firing angles and I doubt any designers of a fortress would have exposed a long straight wall to the sea lane. 

Play with this on Loki's map, Spanish guns from the same period.

Falcón - 3 to 4 pound ball between 417 and 2,500 yards/1.42 miles
Pasavolante - 1 to 15   pound ball between 500 and 4,166/yards 2.36 miles
Media sacre - 5 to 7 pound ball between  417 and 3,750 yards/2.13 miles   
Media culebrina - 10 to 18 pound ball between 833 and 5,000 yards/2.84 miles   
Culebrina - 20, 24, 25, 30, 40, 50 pound balls between 1,742 and 6,666 yards/3.78 miles   

[Old Jim]

I read many years ago that the ruins of a Spanish outpost were under the runways of the Mayport NAS. Is there any chance the Spanish built on the remains of the French fort?

[cowford]

From what I've read the Spanish did occupy the site and renamed the fort San Mateo.  If the findings are true I wonder if the remnants are from the French or the Spanish?

[spuwho]

Spanish maps show Fort San Mateo up on St Johns Bluff.

Laudennaire stated he could see the French ships anchored off Mayport from Caroline. I don't think that possible on a islet near mile point at sea level.

[IrvAdams]

At least it sounds as if the fort was around here somewhere, even if the exact location may remain a mystery. The river has changed quite a bit.

[Ocklawaha]

Here's your English fortress (below the Spanish American War Battery-Which should be open to the public and preserved, perhaps with freeway style barriers on each side to protect the homeowners?), does make you wonder.

[edjax]

I am seeing that this potentially could cause issues with the Jaxport Mile Point waterway project. This sudden find by Ray just about a year after he applied and was not selected for the JaxPort CEO position. Hmmmm.  Not likely a connection but you never know with the Jax old boy network. 

[spuwho]

Here's your English fortress (below the Spanish American War Battery-Which should be open to the public and preserved, perhaps with freeway style barriers on each side to protect the homeowners?), does make you wonder.

This map makes sense.  The dredging of the St Johns started in earnest in the late 1880's and began to change the currents. There is a log entry from a river trader that he saw the remains of the "old spanish fort" when passing through in the late 1870's which was gone 10 years later. This is probably why they poured so much rip rap after the dredging. It was eroding the way the bluff.

So sad.

[tufsu1]

Lake Ray may be the biggest cheerleader for JaxPort....I doubt he is intentionally affecting the Mile Point project in any way.

[cowford]

Bummer.  The search goes on!

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-06-02/story/another-search-old-fort-caroline-features-high-hopes-then-disappointment

[Tacachale]

I spoke to Buzz Thunen at UNF a couple months ago about this, and he was very confident that this wouldn't be the location. It likely didn't even exist in the 1560s. Oh well, at least we know another place where the fort is not.

[spuwho]

If they did find anything east of St John's Bluff, it could be stuff that washed down the river in the 1800's and landed on sand bars downstream. 

My other thought is that the Timuacuan might have rummaged the ruins after the French chased off the Spanish and the relics would have been scattered through the river delta.