Jaguars to Develop Shipyards?

[I-10east]

If we insist on holding out for "highest and best use" (whatever that means) these properties will probably not be developed in my lifetime.  Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

+100

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Been a long day, I'll try to share more detailed thoughts this weekend...

No need, man, I'm just being facetious. 

It's been a pretty long day on my end of the keyboard as well, and the reason that I've posted so much today is kind of due to a lack of competence by others, so I have some 'free time';  Hence the tone of most of my posts. 

[GatorShane]

Excuse me for raining on some peoples pessimistic parade. We have a tendency in this city to rip proposals apart before ground is even broken on said projects. Mark Lamping of the Jags clearly said in the article that they were in discussions with the other interested developers as well. Clearly they would like to make this a combo of several things( Observation Tower, Aquarium, Retail, Housing, Jags themed venues, Naval Museum etc) But that's not good enough for some people. Hell I even forgot about Lamping saying they would like to have green space as well. We don't need more studies, and we shouldn't be considered a "backwater city" if we don't do it like Brooklyn or San Francisco. I am not saying we should just throw something on the property just to have something there, but I am tired of the huge gap between DT and the Sports District. Lets all try to stay positive and give the Jags a chance to get this worked out.

[pierre]

If we insist on holding out for "highest and best use" (whatever that means) these properties will probably not be developed in my lifetime.  Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Agree.

Reminds me of the poster that says "Waiting for the Perfect Man". And it shows a skeleton sitting on a bench.

[Know Growth]

Look what Clay County did to itself.....via community supported vision,Planners & Consultants et al 

Let's rename the town "Potential"

What would San Francisco do with 100 undeveloped waterfont acres??

[Noone]

I am sure the Jaguars would do a quality job, but is their vision for this property in the best interest of the public?   Shouldn't we at least wait until the CRA is completed?

This is why we need a community-supported vision for developing our riverfront.  Whatever we do with these public properties should be done as part of a coordinated and strategic plan that allows us to realize the full potential of our riverfront.

We have a golden opportunity with the Shipyards, the old courthouse, and the JEA property on the southbank that we will never again have once these properties are developed.  Let's make sure that our decisions maximize the overall benefits to the public and downtown revitalization efforts. 

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=543178

RK and not picking on you but you started this thread and so what are your specific suggestions?

This CRA is still being drafted and the zone of this new Waterfront boundary is from the Fuller Warren Bridge to the Mathews Bridge. There is active legislation 2014-305 that has to do with new Docking Rules and penalties. I was at the 6/11/14 Jacksonville Waterways Commission meeting when this was being discussed and Tera Meeks was the only one answering questions. The sponsor of the legislation wasn't there. The Chair of Waterways Don Redman deferred the legislation because of questions and concerns. So will it come back before Waterways again before being voted on by the entire Jacksonville city council? Waterways doesn't meet in July so it would be August. This legislation will now be in Finance and RCD in 4 days. Then it could theoretically be brought to the full Jacksonville city council on 6/24/14 with no amendments and then fall into the guidelines that will be our new CRA/DIA and the Public shut out again. Another token stop in Waterways. Scott Wilson we talked about this yesterday so feel free to jump in here and correct me on that. Have you told Don? Visit Jacksonville!! This legislation has everything to do with Shipyards and Downtown.

You have concerns. How about the Promised Shipyards Pier 2010-604 or Bay St. Pier Park?

I can go on and on but when anyone asks me that we are getting more Public Access and economic opportunity to our St. johns River our American Heritage River a FEDERAL Initiative in our new super duper restricted CRA/DIA zone I tell them that we are getting crushed. Pick and choose the winners and losers. Who should be joining Tony Nelson in Federal prison. Total Backroom  deals.

Please share the strategic plan that allows us to realize the full potential of our Riverfront.

[mtraininjax]

Lets all try to stay positive and give the Jags a chance to get this worked out.

We should all stay positive why? Because the Jacksonville Jaguars are in the land development business? Why not let the people who develop properties talk the talk and walk the walk, instead of having another debacle of "fish out of water" come in and try and make a go of it?

No matter what is built, it will benefit downtown and the stadium area. Let the people who do this for a living do it, Jags, based on their record the last few years, should stick to managing football.  Not building a new supercenter.

[CityLife]

Excuse me for raining on some peoples pessimistic parade.

The real irony of this post is that the people who are in favor of just giving the land away to the Jags are the pessimists. You are the ones that think Jacksonville has to settle for mediocrity. That nobody in the private market would want prime riverfront property. That a football team can develop public land better than people in the development business. That Jacksonville can't do things the same way that wildly successful cities do.

Unfortunately, our city government is so inept, that some people have a very jaded view on how this process should work. Hopefully the CRA will provide a little more clarity and guidance. However, given the Jags public and private posturing for this land and Khan's relationship with the mayor, they are probably influencing that process as well.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Let the people who do this for a living do it, Jags, based on their record the last few years, should stick to managing football.  Not building a new supercenter.

So the fact that our new owner brought in a guy, Mark Lamping, who's developed 2 world class sports venues in the past decade or so doesn't fit your idea of, '...the people who do this for a living..."?

He may not fit the bill for your typical developer, but in several ways, that's a good thing as he and Shad will probably bring ideas to the table that a 'typical' developer may not think of.  Being outside of the box can be a good thing.  And the other point, that City keeps hitting on, is the lackluster effort that our own city has done with the property.

There absolutely should already be some sort of plan in place.  Nothing set in stone, but at the very minimum, some general guidelines to follow by whomever ends up developing the property.  But is obvious that they're quite happy sitting on their hands until someone presents their own plan so they can (IMO):  a)  Take credit for making the property a success or b) wash their hands of it if it's an epic failure.

[copperfiend]

Excuse me for raining on some peoples pessimistic parade.

The real irony of this post is that the people who are in favor of just giving the land away to the Jags are the pessimists. You are the ones that think Jacksonville has to settle for mediocrity. That nobody in the private market would want prime riverfront property. That a football team can develop public land better than people in the development business. That Jacksonville can't do things the same way that wildly successful cities do.

Unfortunately, our city government is so inept, that some people have a very jaded view on how this process should work. Hopefully the CRA will provide a little more clarity and guidance. However, given the Jags public and private posturing for this land and Khan's relationship with the mayor, they are probably influencing that process as well.

For the most part, the people in the "development business" have given this city absolute crap.

[CityLife]

Excuse me for raining on some peoples pessimistic parade.

The real irony of this post is that the people who are in favor of just giving the land away to the Jags are the pessimists. You are the ones that think Jacksonville has to settle for mediocrity. That nobody in the private market would want prime riverfront property. That a football team can develop public land better than people in the development business. That Jacksonville can't do things the same way that wildly successful cities do.

Unfortunately, our city government is so inept, that some people have a very jaded view on how this process should work. Hopefully the CRA will provide a little more clarity and guidance. However, given the Jags public and private posturing for this land and Khan's relationship with the mayor, they are probably influencing that process as well.

For the most part, the people in the "development business" have given this city absolute crap.

That's an awfully broad brush....Are you saying all the new projects in Brooklyn (Jax) are crap? Because those are the most recent examples of what we've gotten. Are you saying the Jaguars could serve as master developer better than say, Hines? Who does have a local presence, but haven't done anything in the urban core that I'm aware of.
http://www.hines.com/about/

[I-10east]

I personally don't see what's so 'dumbed down' about the Jaguars proposal. It sounds exciting to me. They are proposing some rental apartments, entertainment, retail, a marina, a park-like setting, and the multipurpose practice facility. What in the hell is so anticlimactic about that? Nevertheless not even viewing the diagrams.

Does everything have to be a highrise or convention center? Even in upstart places like Charlotte, that high rise construction boom has slowed down dramatically, with everything being proposals. To already deem this Jaguar plan as 'a consolation' you're already going with a 'glass half empty' mindset. Have something positive at the Shipyards, or wait another 25 years for something to be there, the latter option is literally being complacent.

[Jtetlak]

@CityLife, the CRA will show what will be best for the city in the long run, JCCI's Jax2025 plan already shows how the people feel about what is best for Jacksonville. I imagine it will be DIAs job to green light individual projects.

@AuditoreEnterprise, the Jags plan does a pretty good job leaving places for retail and green spaces. The most interesting part for me was an idea for an NFL training facility to train officials, which I was told would probably be funded at least in part by the NFL. Again, this would have to be incorporated in a way that it wasn't wasted space 90% of the time, perhaps with an Armada partnership of some sort?

Until the CRA is finished I don't see anyone making any progress or decisions. Everyone I have talked to is pretty much in the idea phase. In any case, ideally I would like to see the city retain control of the land as much as possible rather than give it away to developers.

[copperfiend]

Excuse me for raining on some peoples pessimistic parade.

The real irony of this post is that the people who are in favor of just giving the land away to the Jags are the pessimists. You are the ones that think Jacksonville has to settle for mediocrity. That nobody in the private market would want prime riverfront property. That a football team can develop public land better than people in the development business. That Jacksonville can't do things the same way that wildly successful cities do.

Unfortunately, our city government is so inept, that some people have a very jaded view on how this process should work. Hopefully the CRA will provide a little more clarity and guidance. However, given the Jags public and private posturing for this land and Khan's relationship with the mayor, they are probably influencing that process as well.

For the most part, the people in the "development business" have given this city absolute crap.

That's an awfully broad brush....Are you saying all the new projects in Brooklyn (Jax) are crap? Because those are the most recent examples of what we've gotten. Are you saying the Jaguars could serve as master developer better than say, Hines? Who does have a local presence, but haven't done anything in the urban core that I'm aware of.
http://www.hines.com/about/

The suburban shopping center in Brooklyn is terrible.

[copperfiend]

Excuse me for raining on some peoples pessimistic parade.

The real irony of this post is that the people who are in favor of just giving the land away to the Jags are the pessimists. You are the ones that think Jacksonville has to settle for mediocrity. That nobody in the private market would want prime riverfront property. That a football team can develop public land better than people in the development business. That Jacksonville can't do things the same way that wildly successful cities do.

Unfortunately, our city government is so inept, that some people have a very jaded view on how this process should work. Hopefully the CRA will provide a little more clarity and guidance. However, given the Jags public and private posturing for this land and Khan's relationship with the mayor, they are probably influencing that process as well.

For the most part, the people in the "development business" have given this city absolute crap.

That's an awfully broad brush....Are you saying all the new projects in Brooklyn (Jax) are crap? Because those are the most recent examples of what we've gotten. Are you saying the Jaguars could serve as master developer better than say, Hines? Who does have a local presence, but haven't done anything in the urban core that I'm aware of.
http://www.hines.com/about/

I think many people are in the mindset that somehow there will be football people developing this. The team's president Mark Lamping oversaw the building of the new Busch Stadium in St Louis. He left the Cardinals to oversee the building of the most expensive stadium in the country in MetLife Stadium. He is overseeing the current Everbank Field upgrades. He's not some layman when it comes to this.