Where Does the Skyway Go From Here?

[Ocklawaha]

Lakelander, would you favor taking it to Francis Lytle, Blue Cross, Atlantic at the FEC or Stadium area? I even got a PM suggesting we take it a block EAST of the Stadium (commuters and eastside residents).

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Your maps show streetcar and skyway lines paralleling each other in these areas.  Long term, its ideal, but for a city just getting started, with limited resources, I'd prefer the idea of a single starter streetcar line connecting Five Points to the Sports District.  The same areas are still served and it would be cheaper, more visually appealing and stimulate infill development in multiple urban core neighborhoods.

As for Riverside Avenue, a skyway stop at Brooklyn Park is a no brainer.  If it extended further, I'd like to see some of those companies/developers along Riverside Avenue contribute to the expense of extending it.

[Ocklawaha]

Next question, barring Jackson Square, should a mini-center be built on the west side of Atlantic at San Marco and the Skyway end there? Commuter rail - Skyway - Bus -   Certainly the right of way is there, and the Hilton has an interest. San Marco has an interest in getting over the FEC without a wait, looks like another short no-brainer to me. For connectivity it just beats the hell out of this idea of a commuter rail station on Prudential Drive, right in front of the San Marco Skyway Station. Why would anyone do that if they come in by train from the north or west/sw, they'll just hop the Skyway to cross the river and end up in the same place... headways 5 minutes for Skyway - 30 minutes for Commuter Rail... Skyway wins every time. Make the interchange at San Marco, just west of the tracks. Something I wish an artist/engineer/planner type (HINT HINT) would draw up.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Your maps show streetcar and skyway lines paralleling each other in these areas.  Long term, its ideal, but for a city just getting started, with limited resources, I'd prefer the idea of a single starter streetcar line connecting Five Points to the Sports District.

Yes but only from Union Station to Newnan, and really the Skyway has only one downtown station on Bay. My thinking is take it down to Newnan and build a streetcar/skyway interchange, with a bus lane. This would be right next to Hyatt, and whatever comes up at the Court House site.

BTW, yet another vendor called me and said 10-20 million a mile for the Skyway extension, MAX, turnkey. Of course they built for Disney and theme parks and JTA deals with transit firms... sad to say but Disney as a transit company trumps them all in ridership, so why not look at those vendors?

OCKLAWAHA

[alta]

A starter line from Sprinfield would be a great start to light rail transit in Jacksonville.  In these tight budget years a dense neighborhood a mile from downtown would be an easy sell for transit.  The urban renewal that is currently under construction there would only be further developed.  The main street corridor is under major redevolopment.  Third and Main is rising vetical with retail and apartment and loft rentals.  7th and Main is being developed in to retail space.  Main St from 4th to 12th st is gettting a $25m redevolpment that is putting the power lines underground, landscaping the medians, adding archtectural lighting and adding brick crosswalks.  Are you listening JTA?  We already a heavy traveled corridor that would only increase in ridership.   

[billy]

There is a CSX (I think) spur that terminates at Commodore Point near the Hart Bridge.
If the Skyway continued past the Stadium area, couldn't it tie in to that Right of Way,
and continue to the Matthews Bridge?
All of the land along there could be high density, high profile use sites.
Build a new,large convention center on the river at Commodore Point, and hotels between the center and the stadium.

Then, Prime Osborne could become the multimodal Temple O' Rail that it should be. 

[thelakelander]

Your maps show streetcar and skyway lines paralleling each other in these areas.  Long term, its ideal, but for a city just getting started, with limited resources, I'd prefer the idea of a single starter streetcar line connecting Five Points to the Sports District.

Yes but only from Union Station to Newnan, and really the Skyway has only one downtown station on Bay. My thinking is take it down to Newnan and build a streetcar/skyway interchange, with a bus lane. This would be right next to Hyatt, and whatever comes up at the Court House site.

Do we really want the skyway's elevated concrete beams running directly in front of the historic buildings on Bay, between Main & Liberty?  If we can get a way with an at-grade streetcar line serving the area, it seems like that option should be explored more.

BTW, yet another vendor called me and said 10-20 million a mile for the Skyway extension, MAX, turnkey.[/b]

OCKLAWAHA

With limited funds for transit, we have to pick the best spots to move forward initially.  At this point, its difficult to justify spending $20 million/mile on the skyway, if spending $5-$10 million/mile, gets me from downtown to Orange Park, the airport or Avenues Mall.  Its hard to bypass a 2 or 3 miles for 1 mile deal.  So ranking them by priorities, I'd get at least one or two regional lines (downtown to the I-295 beltway), up and running first.  With that said, looping the skyway around the west end of the old terminal to FEC's tracks makes sense.  A multiple block walk to transfer to different modes is bad planning.

[thelakelander]

A starter line from Sprinfield would be a great start to light rail transit in Jacksonville.  In these tight budget years a dense neighborhood a mile from downtown would be an easy sell for transit.  The urban renewal that is currently under construction there would only be further developed.  The main street corridor is under major redevolopment.  Third and Main is rising vetical with retail and apartment and loft rentals.  7th and Main is being developed in to retail space.  Main St from 4th to 12th st is gettting a $25m redevolpment that is putting the power lines underground, landscaping the medians, adding archtectural lighting and adding brick crosswalks.  Are you listening JTA?  We already a heavy traveled corridor that would only increase in ridership.   

I'd favor running that starter as commuter rail, using Budd RDCs (Trinity-Dallas/Ft. Worth) or Siemans DMUs (Austin/Ottawa/Oceanside), for monetary purposes.  Right now, it looks like the north line may have the lowest ridership among the three lines being studied so far.  I would also end it well before Yulee (Yulee/Fernandina would be a phase II extension).

However, I must admit, I'm thinking primarily in short term years (5-10).  Start on the no-frills cheap end of things (yet still make it efficient/attractive) and upgrade over time as the city catches rail fever.

[thelakelander]

Next question, barring Jackson Square, should a mini-center be built on the west side of Atlantic at San Marco and the Skyway end there? Commuter rail - Skyway - Bus -   Certainly the right of way is there, and the Hilton has an interest. San Marco has an interest in getting over the FEC without a wait, looks like another short no-brainer to me.

It makes sense to extend the skyway to just north of Atlantic Blvd.  However, the price just went up a bit with JEA costructing that new electrical substation in the middle of where it would have to run.

For connectivity it just beats the hell out of this idea of a commuter rail station on Prudential Drive, right in front of the San Marco Skyway Station. Why would anyone do that if they come in by train from the north or west/sw, they'll just hop the Skyway to cross the river and end up in the same place... headways 5 minutes for Skyway - 30 minutes for Commuter Rail... Skyway wins every time.

Unless you caught the train outside of downtown, which is what most commuter rail riders would be doing.  If I jumped on at Baymeadows and my destination is Baptist Medical, Prudential or Aetna, I'd stay on the commuter rail train until the Southbank stop instead of transferring to the skyway at Atlantic Blvd. 

Make the interchange at San Marco, just west of the tracks. Something I wish an artist/engineer/planner type (HINT HINT) would draw up. [/color] [/b]

OCKLAWAHA

Explain in more detail and I'll see what we can work up.

[Jason]

Do we really want the skyway's elevated concrete beams running directly in front of the historic buildings on Bay, between Main & Liberty?  If we can get a way with an at-grade streetcar line serving the area, it seems like that option should be explored more.

As you've said in the past, a mix of old and new is an enhancement of the pedestrian experience.  I don't think the line looks bad along Hogan.  IMO, its a great way to see the architecture up close.

I personally don't think the final legs of a completed skyway system should be replaced with streetcars because of the additional headache of extra transfers.  If I'm leaving a suns game and want to get back to my condo at the Peninsula I don't want to have to transfer from trolly to skyway to do so.  Multiple fares and additional time would almost make it easier to just drive.

The skyway system should be extended to the sports district, Brooklyn, and Atlantic Blvd because the infrastructure had already been built we need to fully utilize it be completing it.  Street car routes should then extend into the historic districts and pick up the rest of the CBD that the skyway doesn't cover.

With limited funds for transit, we have to pick the best spots to move forward initially.  At this point, its difficult to justify spending $20 million/mile on the skyway, if spending $5-$10 million/mile, gets me from downtown to Orange Park, the airport or Avenues Mall.  Its hard to bypass a 2 or 3 miles for 1 mile deal.  So ranking them by priorities, I'd get at least one or two regional lines (downtown to the I-295 beltway), up and running first.  With that said, looping the skyway around the west end of the old terminal to FEC's tracks makes sense.  A multiple block walk to transfer to different modes is bad planning.

I agree.  Streetcar routes, commuter rail, etc are all priority over government funded skyway expansions (save a new station in Brooklyn) but should not replace intended skyway expansions.

[thelakelander]

I personally don't think the final legs of a completed skyway system should be replaced with streetcars because of the additional headache of extra transfers.  If I'm leaving a suns game and want to get back to my condo at the Peninsula I don't want to have to transfer from trolly to skyway to do so.  Multiple fares and additional time would almost make it easier to just drive.

What about if you left a Suns game headed for anywhere outside of downtown?  I would assume most people attending events in the Sports District don't live downtown.  With most rail systems, eventually you'll have to transfer to get to certain spots.  Transfers aren't bad, if they are properly coordinated.  Plus free transfers, which I endorse, would eliminate stopping to pay multiple fares.

The skyway system should be extended to the sports district, Brooklyn, and Atlantic Blvd because the infrastructure had already been built we need to fully utilize it be completing it.  Street car routes should then extend into the historic districts and pick up the rest of the CBD that the skyway doesn't cover.

I would not object to this.  As long as we had regional lines feeding riders into the skyway first.  As far as I'm concerned, its going to struggle to attract riders, until we have regional rail and bus lines feeding it, regardless of where the short extensions are located.

[Jason]

What about if you left a Suns game headed for anywhere outside of downtown?  I would assume most people attending events in the Sports District don't live downtown.  With most rail systems, eventually you'll have to transfer to get to certain spots.  Transfers aren't bad, if they are properly coordinated.  Plus free transfers, which I endorse, would eliminate stopping to pay multiple fares.

True, transfers are not an end all and free transfers would be a necessity.  But for those urban pioneers that make a point to invest in the core and shun the burbs, they should be rewarded.  Bringing more density to the core should be the ultimate goal of the skyway and complementing systems downtown.  Seamless transportation options are a great positive and another step towards that goal.

I would just hate to see the skyway and its massive investment further ignored by not completing it or by replacing its future extension routes before its finished.  I would rather see a much less permanent solution to extending its reaches in the form of the "JTA Trolly" or busses.

I would not object to this.  As long as we had regional lines feeding riders into the skyway first.  As far as I'm concerned, its going to struggle to attract riders, until we have regional rail and bus lines feeding it, regardless of where the short extensions are located.

Most definitely.  The single greatest limitation of the Skyway it the lack of a feeder system from the burbs.  Commuter rail should take priority.

[alta]

BRT seems to have died a quick death!!!!  I wonder if they would have gone ahead with their plan without the resistance from Metro Jacksonville and the downtown community.

[JeffreyS]

Your maps show streetcar and skyway lines paralleling each other in these areas.  Long term, its ideal, but for a city just getting started, with limited resources, I'd prefer the idea of a single starter streetcar line connecting Five Points to the Sports District.  The same areas are still served and it would be cheaper, more visually appealing and stimulate infill development in multiple urban core neighborhoods.

As for Riverside Avenue, a skyway stop at Brooklyn Park is a no brainer.  If it extended further, I'd like to see some of those companies/developers along Riverside Avenue contribute to the expense of extending it.

I love this as a starting point.  All of the residences along the Skyway and new streetcar line would then be connected to the five points Publix.

[thelakelander]

BRT seems to have died a quick death!!!!  I wonder if they would have gone ahead with their plan without the resistance from Metro Jacksonville and the downtown community.

If not for the opposition, it would be running down the heart of downtown.  BRT is still around, but JTA is making an attempt to make sure all the mass transit components fit together.