Festival ‘Sparks’ Ridership Boom on Skyway

[simms3]

I don't know why people look at our weather (heat) as a negative here when it comes to transit & walkability. To me its quite the positive. Have you ever been in Boston or Chicago (or further south in DC for that matter) in the winter? That shit is NOT pleasant. It feels like you're walking through a frozen, post-apocalyptic wasteland. And trying to carry kids or groceries through that? Forget about it. I'd take sweating over that ANY day.

We're also forgetting what its like in the "winter" here. It's quite nice.

Many might agree, though I think both hot + sticky and freezing + snow are horrible conditions.  The most I have to contend with is rain rain rain in the winter, but otherwise perfect 45-65 degree weather.  Once you get used to that, brutal cold and sweltering heat both seem equally unpleasant.

But I think the question is moreso, what's to stop people from using their heated/cooled car all the time in Jax?  People in cities like NYC, Boston, DC, SF, Chicago, etc are basically forced to use transit, and it's not so bad because the cities are designed that way (it's literally less of a hassle to use transit than to drive around SF or Manhattan, and forget about the $$$$$ of driving, holy shit).

I'm the first to admit, if I move back to Jax (or Atlanta, or Charlotte, or any of these cities), I will own a car and use it as much as possible.  It's so much more convenient and it's cheap to do so.  Standing around in a suit in 95 degree weather at a bus/train stop, or leased Audi with cooled seats, AC, and a stereosystem with garage parking at my house and at my office.  Hmmm 

[thelakelander]

True enough Lake, The Skyway will never live up to it's potential if we never finish it.

Can we hear from Lake if he believes we should invest more in the Skyway to "finish it" or if he believes we should just move on to a different system altogether (not saying tear down the Skyway and pay back the Feds here)?  I think you speak as if Lake is 110% on board with finishing the Skyway, when I don't think he's made that clear.

I've been busy with work and tying up loose things before I head out in the wee morning but wow, this thread has grown since I last posted around lunch time.

I don't believe it makes sense today to finish the Skyway as originally proposed. The cost would be so expensive, we'd simply be better off investing in another type of mode that interacts with it, while also serving destinations that the existing Skyway's footprint does not.  Whether we like BRT or not, the watered down version is going to run up Jefferson and Broad, connecting UF Health, so there's no valid reason to pursue a costly northern expansion.  I've also already stated my position several times on the sports district.  Anything done there is being sold on it's ability to move people in and out who attend major events.  If that's the case, the solution should be one that can actually do that effectively, given the cost of investment to the taxpayer. The Skyway (the system we have today) can not do this.

However, there are two areas worth considering Skyway expansion, IMO.  Brooklyn (which has already been discussed) and San Marco Square.  With San Marco, there are opportunities for high density redevelopment and infill between Kings Avenue Station and Atlantic Blvd, between Hendricks and Kings Avenue/I-95.  It's also the cheapest way to get a grade separated railroad crossing (motorized mobility) option between the Southbank and San Marco.  As far as numbers go, we'd only be talking about a half mile to Atlantic Boulevard and half of that could possible run at-grade, thus reducing the overall expense. Converting this area into some sort of TIF district seems to be the way to go, in regards to getting it funded.

With that said, I'm fine with leaving the Skyway as is, taking our pennies and investing in something that's cheaper, brings higher capacity, provides TOD opportunities and also extends connectivity outside of DT.  I believe, the mobility plan's streetcar route between Park & King and Everbank Field would do the trick initially for less than the cost of extending the Skyway to Everbank Field alone.

So if you had $50 million in downtown transit money spend, would you:

A. Extend Skyway one mile down Bay to EverBank Field, even though it can't handle stadium crowds?

B. Build a starter streetcar line that runs from EverBank Field to Park & King, that can be designed to handle crowds, while also tying in Brooklyn/Riverside Avenue, Memorial Park, Five Points, St. Vincent's and Park & King.

No matter how long the Skyway has been in downtown, I'd take option B every single time. More people served, more development opportunity, more return on investment for the taxpayer.

When the time comes to replace or retrofit the Skyway (+15 years out), I'd probably look at modern streetcar or LRT as major alternatives.  If the support system can handle it, I'd explore converting the Skyway to modern streetcar and tying that in to the line connecting Riverside to EverBank Field.  If it can't be retrofitted, I'd take it out and use the Skyway's north/south corridor as a downtown segment for a full blown LRT line that could also be incrementally extended to other areas of town.

[Scrub Palmetto]

I don't know why people look at our weather (heat) as a negative here when it comes to transit & walkability. To me its quite the positive. Have you ever been in Boston or Chicago (or further south in DC for that matter) in the winter? That shit is NOT pleasant. It feels like you're walking through a frozen, post-apocalyptic wasteland. And trying to carry kids or groceries through that? Forget about it. I'd take sweating over that ANY day.

I highly disagree, but that's because this is highly subjective. I'm a Jacksonville native living in a city with harsher winters than any major city on the East Coast (Kansas City), and right up there with Chicago. Highs in the single digits and entire weeks below freezing are what you can expect here. High winds from the northern plains giving -20 or lower wind chills. I live here without a car. I ride transit regularly. My grocery shopping involves a half-mile walk (one-way) on foot, and I do it in all weather. My apartment has crappy heat, so it gets into the 50s indoors regularly. I have no problem with any of this, and again, I'm a native Floridian. I've even visited Chicago in the middle of winter, and folks up there were coping as fine as we do here in KC. It was not at all a dead or miserable city.

Our summers are equally harsh. Last summer saw over 30 days of highs between 100-110. THAT'S the one time of the year you can find me miserable. That and Florida's 90s with high humidity. I don't mind extreme cold, because I dress properly for it. I can be outside in any temperature that it can get here and I can still be warm. That's just how it works in cold places. There's no good counterpart for me and extreme heat/humidity, as I find it uncomfortable in any (or no) clothing. I always have. The only option is to get out of the heat, find shade, or a breeze. I love Florida, but mostly when it's below 80. I'm moving back there this year, and I do plan on continuing to use transit, walking, and biking as much as possible, as going back to car dependence is not on my to-do list. I will just have to deal with the weather, as we humans have had to do for thousands of years, and as I did when I lived there before.

IMO, we've become too attached to climate control. It should never have become something that keeps us locked up in chilled buildings and vehicles. In moderation, it's a great thing, but not when it becomes a debilitating crutch. With heat in particular, there are ways to build for it that we seem to have forgotten since the invention of air conditioning. Shade and wind can be utilized in remarkable ways. Consider the arcaded cities of Europe, the canopied streets of Northern Africa and Asia, the balconies of New Orleans' French Quarter, the wrap-around porches common in the South, breezeways, etc. Now we build in ways that require you to be within reach of an air conditioner, because all other cooling features are out of our vocabulary. But maybe I'm getting a bit off-topic at this point... at any rate, these concepts can be used to make transit more pleasant in hot climates, as well. Not to mention buses are air conditioned and you can crack windows to get a breeze. But we could benefit from making our streetscapes feel pleasant rather than just look pleasant (*cough* fewer palm trees *cough*). And this is something that benefits everyone, as even car users have to be outside sometimes.

[simms3]

^^^I would agree...and to add to that further, the most I hear people complaining about transit in the NE is when it is summertime and the stations are saunas.  DC and NYC in the summer?  Ugh

I hear people complain about winter itself, but not specifically having to take the train or the bus in while it's cold.  I do hear people specifically complain about having to take transit while it's hot, but conversely I hear less complaining about "heat" in general.  Also - busses and trains can quickly rack up a nice little stench if it's warm.  Nothing like that and a cup of coffee to wake you up in the morning. 

What winter in Jax feels like is what my weather is like all year (granted it's totally dry in the summer with fog).  It's absolutely perfect.  Business attire in general is just not made for 80+ degree heat.


BTW props Scrub for going carless in KC.  I've never been there (STL is closest I've gotten), but I just cannot even imagine it.  SF is about the "lowest" city I think I'd willingly go carless in since it's so congested and expensive, but it honestly has mediocre transit when compared to Boston or DC.  That being said, I think the city overall is more walkable, which is good because you'll be walking when you can as opposed to bussing it since MUNI can be aggravatingly slow.

[Ocklawaha]

True enough Lake, The Skyway will never live up to it's potential if we never finish it.

Can we hear from Lake if he believes we should invest more in the Skyway to "finish it" or if he believes we should just move on to a different system altogether (not saying tear down the Skyway and pay back the Feds here)?  I think you speak as if Lake is 110% on board with finishing the Skyway, when I don't think he's made that clear.

I've been busy with work and tying up loose things before I head out in the wee morning but wow, this thread has grown since I last posted around lunch time.

I don't believe it makes sense today to finish the Skyway as originally proposed.

I was told by one of the engineers that the bents and panels on the Skyway structure sans running beams were engineered for full blown light-rail. Unless that's untrue, I suspect it can handle whatever we throw at it.

As to not finishing it to plan, I think at the very least you take it to Newnan, where it is most likely to intersect streetcar. I also think getting across State Street into the FSCJ property is the right move north if your going limited improvement. Brooklyn and San Marco are no brainers and if you wanted a totally new direction you terminate at the Farmers Market/Woodstock.  Of course extending the Skyway to the Farmers Market/Woodstock has never been on the radar.

As to conversion to true light-rail, you could ramp down on East Bay, San Marco, Brooklyn, FSCJ and the Farmers Market, but considering where we are with the Skyway and the possibility that future expansion could be single beam 'Disney Style' pre fabricated track it's going to cost about the same as LRT.

I'm not a fan of streetcar on Bay Street as:

1. It is a main arterial
2. Newnan to Beaver will get you to the sports district/Eastside just as easily without the traffic.
3. A Beaver street east extension also lines you up seamlessly with the F&J which is a city owned right-of-way all the way     to Gateway.

[Ocklawaha]

Simms, I recall many posts back that you stated going through the tunnels in the earthquake zone is scary. Earthquakes are very common in Colombia, the Andes are in the 'Pacific ring of fire' and are actively volcanic, but the tunnels are hardly effected. FACT: The Subway tunnels are among the safest places you can be in a big earthquake. Tunnel structure is constrained and will not feel the amplification of motion that bridges and buildings experience. Also that amplification diminishes with each foot of depth. If a tunnel moves, because of seismic construction it flexes as a whole unit... In short your good.

Also didn't know if you knew but San Francisco had a wonderful classic terminal at 3rd and Townsend. A streetcar mainline on 3rd and a trolley on Townsend date to that station. Check this out: http://wx4.org/to/foam/sp/san_fran/3rd/townsend.html

A final point on the Skyway, I'm for going after the whole tamale and break the grant application into segments so the FTA could approve parts or the whole package. Nothing beats a trial but a failure!

[simms3]

^^^Haha completely different thread my friend.    I have a base civil background (went to school for civil before switching to finance) so I get all that to a degree, however, I will always be anxious every time I take the tube (largely simply because of the realization of being in a tube so far underwater in a train...I think it's a common anxiety not unlike some people's anxiety flying...having earthquakes does not help that fear!).

Ironically Curbed or Socketsite just had a  "feature article" on that train depot since some land at 500 Townsend just sold last Friday...was interesting.  Still a lot of history for me to learn here...

[tufsu1]

True enough Lake, The Skyway will never live up to it's potential if we never finish it. However saying that confuses people, most don't understand it was planned to go to the sports district, UF, Brooklyn and San Marco from the start, I wouldn't take it an inch farther. Had those lines been built with the monorail beams in 2002, we'd be running 6 car trains today.

of course the stations are only designed for 4-car trains

[tufsu1]

Baltimore then added or connected it all with MARC, Amtrak Corridor trains, bus, and then overlaid the entire metro with a comprehensive Light-Rail system.

The "entire" metro system you speak of is really one line going from downtown to the northwest suburbs.  The MARC commuter rail system connects with light rail at Camden Yards and Penn Station.  The Metro does not connect with either directly. 

[tufsu1]

although during the one spark festival they were running two car trains every time i rode

correct...because Jax has never run the system with 4-car trains.  That said, to their credit trains ran every 3-4 minutes between Central Station and FSCJ

[tufsu1]

2. Newnan to Beaver will get you to the sports district/Eastside just as easily without the traffic.

except that Beaver doesn't go that far....It stops at Washington...perhaps you meant Duval.

[thelakelander]

although during the one spark festival they were running two car trains every time i rode

That's all we have. Anything else would call for the ordering and manufacturing of new rolling stock.

[thelakelander]

although during the one spark festival they were running two car trains every time i rode

correct...because Jax has never run the system with 4-car trains.  That said, to their credit trains ran every 3-4 minutes between Central Station and FSCJ

Trains typically run every 3-4 minutes between Central and FSCJ. The longer waits are typically around 7 minutes at the other end points like the Convention Center and Kings Avenue.

[thelakelander]

2. Newnan to Beaver will get you to the sports district/Eastside just as easily without the traffic.

except that Beaver doesn't go that far....It stops at Washington...perhaps you meant Duval.

Ock has a long time dream of seeing streetcars going down Beaver, along with a new bridge over McCoys Creek.

I'm not a fan of streetcar on Bay Street as:

1. It is a main arterial
2. Newnan to Beaver will get you to the sports district/Eastside just as easily without the traffic.
3. A Beaver street east extension also lines you up seamlessly with the F&J which is a city owned right-of-way all the way  to Gateway.

Not that I care whether it goes down Bay, Adams, Duval, etc., but Forsyth and Adams are just as much "arterials" on that end of downtown as Bay.  Probably even moreso, outside of game days, as they form the connection between I-95 and the Hart Bridge. At the end of the day, if one mode (say streetcar) ties the heart of DT with the sports district, there's little need to turn around and invest in a second fixed transit corridor running parallel to it, a couple of blocks away.  Take that $40-$50 million and spend it on another corridor that penetrates another section of town.

[thelakelander]

^Me neither.  The service is actually probably the best that JTA has to offer.  The problem is Jacksonville gave up on mass transit way too soon and has done everything in its power to make the system a failure.