Is it time to replace Metropolitan Park?

[thelakelander]

^Pretty much. If you can't have this type of stuff downtown, then what's the point of trying to make the place a vibrant 24/7 environment.

[fsujax]

Small town thinking people. Move out if you don't like it. I live in Springfield and hear things all the time. Do I get annoyed, sometimes yes, but I get over it because I chose to live in the center of a city. Stop holding back our City.

[cline]

The St. Augustine Amphitheater is in very close proximity to residential neighborhoods both to the south and to the west.  Do those residents complain of noise as well?  That amphitheater is somewhat dug into the ground (or at least it seems to be) so perhaps that helps with the noise.  Could that not be an option for Met Park.  St. Augustine has tons of shows-including rock but I'm not aware of a high level of complaints by nearby residents.  Perhaps it could serve as a model.

[Dog Walker]

I was there.  There were both violations of the public records laws and a backroom agreement.  We got inside City Hall tips that specific documents were being withheld by Mr. Mullaney so those specific documents were requested and disclosed.  They revealed the backroom agreement.  Dick Suddath died a few months ago which is a real loss to the community, but Sid Ansbacher and I are still here and remember.

I think Mayor Delaney, who is an honorable man, was blindsided too.

[peestandingup]

Small town thinking people. Move out if you don't like it. I live in Springfield and hear things all the time. Do I get annoyed, sometimes yes, but I get over it because I chose to live in the center of a city. Stop holding back our City.

For real. While we're at it, why don't we just move the Amtrak station out of the city to the middle of nowhere? Oh, we did that? How about putting parking nazis on every corner so no one wants to come downtown at all for anything? We did that too?? OK, what about making downtown laws so toxic & full of red tape that no one wants to open up a business there? What's that you say?? Hmm, what about making Met Park so void of life that it looks like a scene from a horror movie? Well, son of a biscuit eater!

That's the ticket, guys. Keep pushing things outta downtown & wondering why it stinks. It's truly like some of these people have never seen a real downtown before in their entire lives. Plain & simple, stop holding back progress. DT needs all the things it can get. If you dont like it, move the hell out. You have your pick of PLENTY of quiet suburban areas in this city. As a matter of fact, more than you can shake a stick at.

[Dog Walker]

You have your pick of PLENTY of quiet suburban areas in this city. As a matter of fact, more than you can shake a stick at.

But St. Nicholas, Empire Point and San Marco were quiet suburban areas when people moved there.  It's a concert venue that wanted to move in.  I had lived there for twenty years, without disturbance, when the whole concert venue thing wanted to move in.  Why should I have had to move out or suffer for your amusements?

It's not like we had knowing moved too near an airport.

"Your freedom to swing your arms ends where my nose (ears?) begins."  - Libertarian creedo.

[Dog Walker]

Stephen,  there was an order of  magnitude of difference between what you could hear from the games, an occasional roar from the crowd, the jazz festival and the rock concerts that were held in the stadium at the time.  The faint sounds of happy music from the fair were even pleasant. Yes, we could even hear that, but it didn't make the glass buzz in our windows like the rock concerts did.

There was NO plan to control the sound from the proposed amphitheater in any fashion except for a back stage wall; trees, berms, etc. were nowhere to be seen.  Couldn't put it in a big pit and cover it like the one in St. Augustine either.  That's a good design for sound control but difficult to reproduce on fill dirt.

The 1997 amphitheater proposal was like Godzilla coming to town.  It would have killed everything close to it; downtown, the crossriver neighborhoods and the Southbank.  All residents would have left downtown.  There were even lawsuits going on in the towns where these monsters had been built at the time for quality of life issues.  Norfolk maybe? 

To suggest that the fate of downtown is contingent on having an outdoor rock concert venue is laughable.  I've been in vibrant downtowns across the country from Portland to Asheville and they are not dependent on rock concerts.

Build a new convention center with a concert venue inside.  Return Amtrack to Union Station.  Uproot the parking meters.  Connect downtown to the traditional streetcar suburbs with new streetcars and THEN you will see downtown come alive again.

It's "transit oriented development" not noise oriented development.

[JayBird]

You can still today hear the Jaguars games, Monster Truck and Motocross rallies, and the Gator Bowl just as clearly from the front porch of our transition house at 9th & Phoenix as if you were right in the parking lot tailgating. The residents there can also hear the Jazz Festival music and Rockville music. So to say there is a marked difference between a well planned amphitheater and the stadium is kind of ridiculous.

And to DogWalker, I can understand and respect that you must stand up for now what you stood for 10 years ago.  But clearly, based on the actual reports of those who've lived or tested sound in the area since you've left clearly show that the situation has changed and must be reevaluated. You cannot really argue your point on 10-15 year old facts.

[Dog Walker]

I am not qualified to have an opinion of what the situation is now with the noise from the park and have tried not to represent that I did.  I haven't lived there since 2006 and now live in a much noisier environment which doesn't bother me a bit since it is urban noise, not loud music into the wee hours of the morning.  FYI, I live within 100 yards of the I-95/I-10 interchange and like to have my windows open.  My hearing is still good too.

From this thread's reports it seems that things are much better than they were a decade and a half ago, but I will stand by my opinion that we dodged a major bullet by torpedoing the proposed amphitheater.

I also have the opinion, slightly better informed, that with modern acoustical engineering and careful regulation, rock concerts could be held at Metro Park without major problems with the neighbors in any direction.  I am also not sure if the performers and promoters would be willing to live with the engineering and other restrictions having absolutely no knowledge of the music concert business.

[peestandingup]

You have your pick of PLENTY of quiet suburban areas in this city. As a matter of fact, more than you can shake a stick at.

But St. Nicholas, Empire Point and San Marco were quiet suburban areas when people moved there.  It's a concert venue that wanted to move in.  I had lived there for twenty years, without disturbance, when the whole concert venue thing wanted to move in.  Why should I have had to move out or suffer for your amusements?

It's not like we had knowing moved too near an airport.

"Your freedom to swing your arms ends where my nose (ears?) begins."  - Libertarian creedo.

I hear you, but the same could be said about Riverside, King, Avondale, etc because urban blight was in full effect & many of the core areas were essentially left for dead. And we hear the same types of complaints from all over the core areas now that things are actually starting to look up. Should we inhibit progress because of a small minority of vocal naysayers who remembers these times doesn't want things to change?

You may not always agree on the type of progress that happens, but its progress nonetheless & should be welcomed, not shunned & ran out of town. Like I said, Downtown needs all it can get.

[BridgeTroll]

DW... your issue seems to be focused on the genre of music.  You seem to not mind the "Happy music" of the fair or the Jazz concerts... or even the "urban noise" of I-10 and I-95 with your windows open.  Perhaps it is just me... but it seems you would be OK with Met park if they would just ban rock type music...

[thelakelander]

You have your pick of PLENTY of quiet suburban areas in this city. As a matter of fact, more than you can shake a stick at.

But St. Nicholas, Empire Point and San Marco were quiet suburban areas when people moved there.  It's a concert venue that wanted to move in.  I had lived there for twenty years, without disturbance, when the whole concert venue thing wanted to move in.  Why should I have had to move out or suffer for your amusements?

It's not like we had knowing moved too near an airport.

"Your freedom to swing your arms ends where my nose (ears?) begins."  - Libertarian creedo.

I'm not sure these places (outside of 19th century Empire Point) were quiet areas when early 20th century residents moved in. Beach was a railroad, the FEC had a huge yard between San Marco and St. Nicholas and there were at least two major shipyards and a power plant in the immediate vicinity.

[Dog Walker]

DW... your issue seems to be focused on the genre of music.  You seem to not mind the "Happy music" of the fair or the Jazz concerts... or even the "urban noise" of I-10 and I-95 with your windows open.  Perhaps it is just me... but it seems you would be OK with Met park if they would just ban rock type music...

BT, It wasn't the genre of the music as my collection shows, but the VOLUME of the music.  A Bach cantata played at that volume would be just as bad maybe worse.  Rock music doesn't have violins. 

Music of any kind is also different from other sounds in the environment.  It is not random, it is not continuous and it is designed to catch and hold your attention.  Even "elevator music" is difficult to ignore.

Lake, with the exception of the train horns (also designed to get attention), and you know how popular they are, there was nothing in the area that ever made a sound as loud as the concerts in the stadium.

At least the train horns don't go on for hours.  When the shipyards were open we would also get blasts from the ship's horns that would shake the windows and make the dogs bark.  But, ten seconds and it was over. I actually miss the sound of the tugboat's peanut whistles.

[Tacachale]

I was there.  There were both violations of the public records laws and a backroom agreement.  We got inside City Hall tips that specific documents were being withheld by Mr. Mullaney so those specific documents were requested and disclosed.  They revealed the backroom agreement.  Dick Suddath died a few months ago which is a real loss to the community, but Sid Ansbacher and I are still here and remember.

I think Mayor Delaney, who is an honorable man, was blindsided too.

I was there too. Regardless of how your lawyer sold it to you, were no violations of any law and it certainly wasn't the reason the project was abandoned. Again, the real reason was the difficulty of negotiating with the feds while some complainers fought to obstruct it at every turn.

There was NO plan to control the sound from the proposed amphitheater in any fashion except for a back stage wall; trees, berms, etc. were nowhere to be seen.  Couldn't put it in a big pit and cover it like the one in St. Augustine either.  That's a good design for sound control but difficult to reproduce on fill dirt.

It's not really a shocker that final plans weren't in place before the city even had possession of the land it would be built on. However, there definitely were going to be noise control measures, and a modern, purpose-built venue would have had much better control than just setting up a bunch of huge speakers and pointing them forward, which is what we have now. And of course, there's no actual evidence that the concerts we have now actually go over the line. That's why the complainers want to change the regulations.

The 1997 amphitheater proposal was like Godzilla coming to town.  It would have killed everything close to it; downtown, the crossriver neighborhoods and the Southbank.  All residents would have left downtown.  There were even lawsuits going on in the towns where these monsters had been built at the time for quality of life issues.  Norfolk maybe? 

To suggest that the fate of downtown is contingent on having an outdoor rock concert venue is laughable.  I've been in vibrant downtowns across the country from Portland to Asheville and they are not dependent on rock concerts.

If we're talking about what's "laughable", let's talk about the idea that a venue that drew thousands of people on a routine basis would have "killed everything close to it".

You have your pick of PLENTY of quiet suburban areas in this city. As a matter of fact, more than you can shake a stick at.

But St. Nicholas, Empire Point and San Marco were quiet suburban areas when people moved there.  It's a concert venue that wanted to move in.  I had lived there for twenty years, without disturbance, when the whole concert venue thing wanted to move in.  Why should I have had to move out or suffer for your amusements?

It's not like we had knowing moved too near an airport.

"Your freedom to swing your arms ends where my nose (ears?) begins."  - Libertarian creedo.

I'm not sure these places (outside of 19th century Empire Point) were quiet areas when early 20th century residents moved in. Beach was a railroad, the FEC had a huge yard between San Marco and St. Nicholas and there were at least two major shipyards and a power plant in the immediate vicinity.

Yeah, they weren't "quiet" when they were starting to get built up by the railroads and the ship building industry.  It's disappointing that we're make decisions based on the perceived level of activity when the Old City was at its lowest point. Although honestly, between the highway noise, trains, and sound from the events we do have, these neighborhoods aren't even really "quiet suburban areas" now. It definitely seems to be a matter of what kinds of noise is being made.

This is the kind of thing that pits our desire to have an active downtown against our desire to not rock the boat. Unfortunately, downtown vibrancy is going to require rocking the boat a bit.

[mtraininjax]

from the Times Union section B-6, Saturday, December 14, 2013:

The St. Augustine Amphitheater broke the 100,000 ticket mark this year for the first time. So far in 2013, the concert venue has sold 100,146 tickets to 38 events. The rest of the events scheduled this month are FREE. This broke the record of 84,000 set last year.

Sharp stick in the eye to Jacksonville for losing out on all this revenue and JOBS!