Who was Nathan Bedford Forrest?

[JayBird]

^LoL good point about intertwined! Ha, I don't know why ANYONE would promote that pastors rhetoric and if they are all linked I can only hope that those young minds at Kirby-Smith are not being taught such nonsense that will corrupt yet another generation.

[kbhanson3]

^LoL good point about intertwined! Ha, I don't know why ANYONE would promote that pastors rhetoric and if they are all linked I can only hope that those young minds at Kirby-Smith are not being taught such nonsense that will corrupt yet another generation.

My son is at Kirby Smith. Believe me, no need to worry about that.  They're just trying to figure out how to build robots.

[Cheshire Cat]

^LoL good point about intertwined! Ha, I don't know why ANYONE would promote that pastors rhetoric and if they are all linked I can only hope that those young minds at Kirby-Smith are not being taught such nonsense that will corrupt yet another generation.

My son is at Kirby Smith. Believe me, no need to worry about that.  They're just trying to figure out how to build robots.

Good deal! 

[Cheshire Cat]

The pastors rhetoric seems to only be present on the Museum of Southern History FB page. To tell you the truth I doubt those who posted it have any idea who the pastor really is, just kinda posted cause you know, he is a good old Christian country boy who loved old Nathan B.    It is rare to have these sorts of groups look too deeply into the background of those whose rhetoric attracts them.  I have never known any of the people from the museum to speak in racist tones but I would surmise that some harbor such feelings and don't make an issue of them in public.  I don't think the Sons of Confederate soldiers named their group after the school but rather after the man who was...you guessed it...a confederate. 

[Sgarey123]

Forrest will have many fans.  He was a hero. His name was a house hold word after the war. He is revered by historians and military as delivering and creating new tactics in Calvary warfare! This recognition is not by just southerners but worldwide. The man was a genius.

You attack him based off the people fighting for him? You are a smear master, Diane.  One could look into your life and  do the same thing. I promise you.

The fact is that Nathan Bedford Forrest is an icon.  An Icon of the South. The region that we live in and all should pay tribute. 

Get back to the real issue here.  SHAME on you guys.  You all know that this is wrong. 

Right now I can see Diane screaming "BURN BURN BUUUUUURN"  in Salem Massachusetts. 

Please do not rename Forrest High school.  The change will not help our local community. It will harm it. We are a proud City and do not answer to fools casting stones from beyond the borders. WE HAVE NO NEED TO APOLOGIZE!

I ask you all...do you love this land? Do you really want to resolve problems here? If so this is not the way to do it. This is a distraction. It is a way to rile you up and distract from the real issues. Your children go to school in a prison-like atmosphere!

You should all be ashamed.  Changing the name of something that has been in place for this long only creates hatred on both sides.  It is disgusting.

Nathan Bedford Forrest was a great man and the people lucky enough to have served with him were great too. I choose to honor bravery, genius, and fortitude. Why do you not join?

[Cheshire Cat]

Took you awhile to decide on a comeback that you felt would not further incriminate you or tip your hand here Sgarey.    You have failed all the way around and still you keep on with the crap.  I for one am not interested in entertaining any more of your nonsense.  It is my suggestion now that other forum posters do the same and simply stop reading your foolishness or responding to it.  You have succeeded in doing one thing which is polluting the forum with your self serving bravado based in hatred.  As far as helping the issue of keeping the name Nathan B. Forrest on the school, you have successfully removed any doubt as to the damage retaining that name has and continues to do to the city of Jacksonville.  If anyone was entertaining not changing the name your spew has made that possibility moot.  Well done!  What is really hysterical is the fact that if any smearing was done it was done using your own foul words and insane rantings that are on record through social media.  You have impugned yourself.  No one else needs do a thing.  You are done even if you don't realize it.  Stick a fork in it done!

[Ocklawaha]

I can't help but think of what Forrest's Scouts would think of this? That 45 man force was made up of African-Confederate-Americans. What? Black Rebels? Yeah, read it for yourselves:

Black Confederates? Why haven't we heard more about them? National Park Service historian, Ed Bearrs, stated, "I don't want to call it a conspiracy to ignore the role of Blacks both above and below the Mason-Dixon line, but it was definitely a tendency that began around 1910" Historian, Erwin L. Jordan, Jr., calls it a "cover-up" which started back in 1865. He writes, "During my research, I came across instances where Black men stated they were soldiers, but you can plainly see where 'soldier' is crossed out and 'body servant' inserted, or 'teamster' on pension applications." Another black historian, Roland Young, says he is not surprised that blacks fought. He explains that "...some, if not most, Black southerners would support their country" and that by doing so they were "demonstrating it's possible to hate the system of slavery and love one's country." This is the very same reaction that most African Americans showed during the American Revolution, where they fought for the colonies, even though the British offered them freedom if they fought for them.


     It has been estimated that over 65,000 Southern blacks were in the Confederate ranks. Over 13,000 of these, "saw the elephant" also known as meeting the enemy in combat. These Black Confederates included both slave and free. The Confederate Congress did not approve blacks to be officially enlisted as soldiers (except as musicians), until late in the war. But in the ranks it was a different story. Many Confederate officers did not obey the mandates of politicians, they frequently enlisted blacks with the simple criteria, "Will you fight?" Historian Ervin Jordan, explains that "biracial units" were frequently organized "by local Confederate and State militia Commanders in response to immediate threats in the form of Union raids...". Dr. Leonard Haynes, a African-American professor at Southern University, stated, "When you eliminate the black Confederate soldier, you've eliminated the history of the South."
http://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo/county/stlouis/blackcs.htm

Black Southerners fought alongside white, Hispanic, Indian, Jewish and thousands of foreign-born Southerners. They fought as documented by Union sources:

Frederick Douglass, Douglass' Monthly, IV [Sept. 1861,] pp 516 - "there are at the present moment many colored men in the Confederate Army - as real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down loyal troops, and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government...There were such soldiers at Manassas and they are probably there still."

"Negroes in the Confederate Army," Journal of Negro History, Charles Wesle, Vol. 4, #3, [1919,] 244-245 - "Seventy free blacks enlisted in the Confederate Army in Lynchburg, Virginia. Sixteen companies of free men of color marched through Augusta, Georgia on their way to fight in Virginia."
http://blackconfederates.blogspot.com

The Confederate Burial Mound for Camp Morton, Indiana, at Indianapolis, Indiana, has bronze tablets which list the nearly 1200 Confederates who died at that camp. Among those names are 26 Black Southerners, seven Hispanic Southerners and six Indiaan Southerners.

At a time when those Black Southerners could have walked into the Camp Commander's office, taken a short oath and signed their name to walk out the gates free men obliged to no one they chose instead to stay even unto death. Your understanding of that choice is likely nonexistent.
http://blackconfederates.blogspot.com

I believe that last sentence applies to the many on this thread who are in this because it's the 'currently correct' version of history. Rather then stand on our history, for better or worse we are proving to be the real revisionists, unworthy of respect from either ancestral side.

[Ocklawaha]

Remember all of those truths that your school taught you? How the South couldn't win because all of it's man power went to war etc?? Well who the hell was minding the farm? Through 4 years of total war the south managed (poorly at times) to feed and clothe it's armies without any (white) men, transportation or industry...  Sounds like a crock to me.

If you'd care to really learn this, we could meet up at the library downtown and I can show you excerpts from the 'Official Records of the War of Rebellion' all day long that contain such treasures as, MANY Black slave owners, Black owned plantations and businesses. The first group to volunteer it's money and lives to the Southern war effort was an association of Black business owners in South Carolina. The records are also full of war crimes committed on Black citizens by northern troops, not for being Black, but for being 'Rebels.' One of my favorite quotes is from a northern officer watching Lee's army cross the river into Maryland. The quote went something like this; "The Rebel Army marches with it's white and black soldiers with no apparent difference to either race, they are mixed, singing and cutting the fool as if children of the same family." Indeed the story is NOT what we are taught today, one must go to the old and original source material and not try and view this through todays glasses.

Fact is, if you are/or were Black, had a farm, lived on the route of the Federal Army, you were likely to volunteer... or be tortured or shot. Your home was toast unless they needed it, your women and children were in even worse condition. Is it any wonder that Black Southron's picked up their weapons and fought for their turf?

Locally some of our schools are fond of telling the story how the Confederates planned to kill all of the Black Yankee's they captured at Olustee. Didn't happen, at least not on any news worthy scale, though there were probably some crazies as happens on any battlefield. What you will find in the reports are the Southerners opening their homes and hospitals in Lake City to mend the wounded Yankees Black and White. You will read how the Yankee's complained of being put in the same rooms as their Black soldiers.

The worst thing you'll read about Olustee is the fact that the Federal commanders made a game of running the Black soldiers into the meat grinder. They were ordered not to fall back under penalty of death. As the Confederate line advanced through the woods, there are dozens of notes from various commanders of the horror they witnessed as the Yankee's enjoyed their sport. The Black troops were caught between murderous Confederate fire and certain death if they turned.

So while in a Yankee Prison, with Emancipation available for an oath, with Yankee guards supposedly there to save them, YES, these men had a choice the white Confederates didn't have, and they chose to die with their brothers. Doesn't fit well with our current revision does it?

[thelakelander]

^The issue in this Forrest situation is the reasoning behind the 1959 naming of the school.  It's hard to defend the act of giving desegregation the middle finger.

[Sgarey123]

It seems fairly obvious that you care what color the Confederates were.  Is it not the real basis for this name change, after all?  How many times have you played that card in this discussion?

Are we really saying that the change is now based purely off the "War criminal" theory? It is the weakest argument of all of them.  He was not a war criminal. Period.

I joined this board to insure that common sense and fairness were represented in this discussion. I am defending what I consider to be my home and my culture. Forrest deserves better than this and I aim to stand here until the very last second. I think it might make the difference.  The Daily record survey gives me hope (84% for keeping name).

Many people are afraid to speak on this matter because of the racial element in the discussion. It is imperative to this debate to understand that Black folks are southerners too. It would be wonderful to see the Ritz theater start to gather information on this subject and dedicate a section to Black Confederates.  This is the road to "healing." Changing the name is the road to more conflict. 

There is no logical basis for supporting this change. The emotional basis is understood but it is manageable.  Our school system's job is to teach! It should not be hard to teach children to love their home. Nathan Bedford Forrest is part of it. He is a hero of our Region. Lets teach that he (like all Confederates) had no choice but to defend his home.  The army was built of people that lived here regardless of race.  Few people realize that the Indians fought for the south too. It was a multicultural defense.  Black, white and Red all defending their families and homes might be a good thing learn about. I know that my history teachers were top of the line and taught me to love my home. It can be done. Pride is learned and it should be taught.

Changing the name is the wrong thing to do. It will hurt this community. It will be a wedge of hatred.

[kbhanson3]

^The issue in this Forrest situation is the reasoning behind the 1959 naming of the school.  It's hard to defend the act of giving desegregation the middle finger.

Well said.  All of the other arguments against renaming are just red herrings.

[thelakelander]

Btw, a red herring for sure but for the historical revisionists out there, what makes Forrest a better man than Stanley "Tookie" Williams? Williams co-founded the Crips to be a "bull-force" neighborhood watch but later renounced his affiliation in prison. He was still put to death.  I don't see any pushes around the country to name public schools after him.

[Demosthenes]

Why in the world should anyone celebrate black confederates and slave holders?!

The trade of human souls is not justified by the fact that someone perpitating it is of the same race. Its nothing more than an interesting footnote in an otherwise horrific chapter in American history.

[Ocklawaha]

Btw, a red herring for sure but for the historical revisionists out there, what makes Forrest a better man than Stanley "Tookie" Williams? Williams co-founded the Crips to be a "bull-force" neighborhood watch but later renounced his affiliation in prison. He was still put to death.  I don't see any pushes around the country to name public schools after him.

Tookie Williams was CONVICTED in a court of law. Forrest was not, in fact he was not convicted by a vengeful US Congress that would have loved nothing more then to see him hang.

Not for 'Fort Pillow.'

Not for his supposed leadership of the 'KKK'.

Why in the world should anyone celebrate black confederates and slave holders?!

One celebrates black Confederate soldiers for the same reason that we celebrate any other American soldier that was willing to or did in fact lay down their lives for their country.

Nobody celebrates black slave holders, but the fact that they existed completely negates the modern revisionism that the South rebelled simply as a means to, "eat the entrails of all the black people in the south before setting them on fire." Southerner's were all in this together.

It's comical that the revisionists are calling Sgarey123 and I 'revisionists.' Our defense of Forrest or any other southron of any color is seated in the original records but of course this isn't what they taught you in school. For the north to justify their war on the south they needed a very effective smoke screen. Eliminating the Black Confederate from the story fits very nicely with the 'All southern Whites hate all Black people,' line of thinking. Toss in a few whipping posts (which were used as corporal punishment throughout the country for people of any race) and lose the white 'victim-criminals', a great emancipator (who planned to deport all Black people during his second term) and you can create a whole new spin.

Forrest High School, regardless of the desegregation era during which it was named, was named as a result of one of the greatest American celebrations of all time. The 'Civil War Centennial,' was the closest Jacksonville became to being a destination since the days of being 'The Queen of the Winter Resorts.' Anyone who recalls the American bi-centennial celebration would understand if I told you the war centennial was just as big, maybe bigger. From the President of the United States to the pine trees at Olustee, it was a tidal wave that swept everything before it.

[Tacachale]

I for one am happy that Ock is back with some intelligent commentary from the anti-name change side.

That said, the existence of black confederates and slave owners has nothing to do with Forrest or why his name was chosen for a school in Jacksonville, Florida nearly 100 years after the war.

If we're going to have a general discourse about the Civil War, that's awesome, but it doesn't really mean anything for whether or not this school's name should be changed.