Who was Nathan Bedford Forrest?

[Sgarey123]

You have only proven my points further.  Thank you!

I am very familiar with the statue. I was speaking from memory. I walked by that statue for almost a decade twice a day.  I asked you to go look at it because there were some pretty big mistakes made earlier (IE...Yankee town).  These concepts were wrong and an entire platform was built for name change on top of this fallacy.

General J.J. Dickinson's face is on it. I was not wrong. He is depicted on the statue as I stated. He may not be the actual statue (could still be but not likely).  I am happy you found that other link and cleared it all up. That is awesome.

The whole reason I brought up the monument (both times) was because someone was claiming that Jacksonville was not a Confederate town.  This monument proves that it was and is. Its in the CENTER OF THE TOWN. Its also one of the few things that survived the fire! I wonder what other Confederate relics burned in that fire. It is a State treasure!

Nathan Bedford Forrest is easily in the top 10 well known Generals of the Confederacy  ( http://blueandgraytrail.com/features/bestgenerals.html ). Jacksonville was part of the Confederacy and part of its culture. Therefore, Nathan Bedford Forrest represents a regional hero and can be claimed across all of the Southern states that succeeded from the Union as one of their own. He is regarded as a military genius and it would be appropriate for him to have a school named after him anywhere in the South.

I find it amusing that you guys claim your region/state etc when it suites your argument and then try to disown when it does not. It is childish. If you read the whole inscription (and it is quite a different thing to see it engraved in person) It goes like this (I posted before but this one is better):

TO THE SOLDIERS OF FLORIDA
THIS SHAFT IS BY A COMRADE RAISED IN
TESTIMONY OF HIS LOVE, RECALLING DEEDS
IMMORTAL, HEROISM UNSURPASSED. WITH RANKS UNBROKEN, RAGGED, STARVED
AND DECIMATED, THE SOUTHERN SOLDIER,
FOR DUTY'S SAKE, UNDAUNTED STOOD TO
THE FRONT OF BATTLE UNTIL NO LIGHT
REMAINED TO ILLUMINE THE FIELD OF CARNAGE,
SAVE THE LUSTRE OF HIS CHIVALRY
AND COURAGE.

"NOR SHALL YOUR GLORY BE FORGOT
WHILE FAME HER RECORD KEEPS,
OR HONOR POINTS THE HALLOWED SPOT
WHERE VALOR PROUDLY SLEEPS."

(Below plaque, on base:)
CONFEDERATE MEMORIAL/1861-1865
OUR HEROES
GOD BLESS OUR COUNTRY/1898

This Statue was not "just" for Florida. It was for all Southern Soldiers. The message was preceded with "Soldiers for Florida" because the memorial was meant to heal wounds from the war since they were about to embark on another war in Cuba.

Renaming the school will be a mistake. Again thank you for posting that link. It took me several tries to get to one of them so it would seem people are taking notice and may full well realize that we are close to cannibalizing what makes us special. 

[Cheshire Cat]

Denialism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In human behavior, denialism is exhibited by individuals choosing to deny reality as a way to avoid dealing with an uncomfortable truth.[1] Author Paul O'Shea remarks, "[It] is the refusal to accept an empirically verifiable reality. It is an essentially irrational action that withholds validation of a historical experience or event".[2] Author Michael Specter defined group denialism as "when an entire segment of society, often struggling with the trauma of change, turns away from reality in favor of a more comfortable lie."[3]

In science, denialism has been defined as the rejection of basic concepts that are undisputed and well-supported parts of the scientific consensus on a topic in favor of ideas that are both radical and controversial.[4] It has been proposed that the various forms of denialism have the common feature of the rejection of overwhelming evidence and the generation of a controversy through attempts to deny that a consensus exists.

[thelakelander]

The whole reason I brought up the monument (both times) was because someone was claiming that Jacksonville was not a Confederate town.  This monument proves that it was and is. Its in the CENTER OF THE TOWN. Its also one of the few things that survived the fire! I wonder what other Confederate relics burned in that fire. It is a State treasure!

Umm, I assume you do know who paid for the monument and when it was installed. It's a stretch to use this event as something to validate a town's dominate position a few decades earlier. Btw, you're the only one in this thread trying to force this region's entire history to fit into a confederate box.  I could be reading the last few posts wrong but you're starting to contradict yourself all over the place now. None of which any of this mumbo jumbo has anything to do with changing the name of the school.

[Cheshire Cat]

The whole reason I brought up the monument (both times) was because someone was claiming that Jacksonville was not a Confederate town.  This monument proves that it was and is. Its in the CENTER OF THE TOWN. Its also one of the few things that survived the fire! I wonder what other Confederate relics burned in that fire. It is a State treasure!

Umm, I assume you do know who paid for the monument and when it was installed. It's still a stretch to claim this event something as someone's town a few decades earlier. Btw, you're the only one in this thread trying to force this region's entire history to fit into confederate box.  I could be reading the last few posts wrong but you're starting to contradict yourself all over the place now. None of which any of this mumbo jumbo has anything to do with changing the name of the school.

That is exactly what is happening Ennis, contradictions all over the place as a fairytale falls apart.  The posts by Sgarey are every bit those of one in denial. 

[Tacachale]

Something that's worth pointing out in the context of the Forrest renaming is that Hemming Park was itself renamed. It was previously known as St. James Park and was renamed in 1899 after Charles Hemming, a Jacksonville native who had donated the Confederate Monument the previous year. This also goes with thelakelander's point that Confederate Park was originally called Dignan Park until 1914, when it was renamed after a Confederate veterans reunion held there.

So, thanks sgarey, for bringing up two examples of renamings that were not "bad for Jacksonville".

[kbhanson3]

Nice site folks.  It must be horrifying to realize you are exactly what you hate. Bigots.

From Merriam Webster - Bigot: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially :  one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.

I fail to see how any of the posts here advocating a name change could be considered bigoted.  What would be the group allegedly being treated with prejudice, hatred or intolerance?  Southerners? I'm guessing most if not all of us posting here are southerners. I just don't see any prejudice, hatred or intolerance towards any group in the pro-name change posts.  Puzzling....

[Sgarey123]

okay so here goes...

Please name the contradictions.  Again you guys are making up some emotional BS to misdirect from the real discussion.  I have to hand it to you all. You are good at it. You have been doing it for years together.  Of course I am alone! Who would put up with this mess? I am merely here to keep you guys from spinning this into a renaming publication.  You can smear all you want but I will give back honest and positive information in its place.

Hemming paid for that park. It was an honor for him to choose Jacksonville. Hemming was a confederate (big time).  Go read the links!

Jacksonville has many influences. Confederate is one of the big ones. You guys seem to want to "Re-label" Jacksonville into being some place with out identity. Having a school named after Forrest sets us apart and tells folks we are good enough on our own two feet. We do not have to copy New York, Atlanta, or any other city. We also do not need to be told what to name our schools.  We are part of the South and Forrest was a Southern General (a damn good one too).

Bigots. Yep. That definition describes every one of you on this issue. Numerous quotes and pictures showing intolerance are all in prior posts for the viewing public.  I have jumped through every hoop and stepped boldly into every trap just to get you guys to think this through.  You all still haven't gotten that Natives (black, white, and red)  and confederate heritage enthusiast are a group. You all seem to hate these groups.   

We are not in "denial."  We are protecting this town from assimilation and poverty by fighting this name change. Being part of the Confederacy as a City is something very special. It is interesting. People from other places may want to learn about it and come here and spend some money.  The NFB high school is part of that special heritage that you want to tear down. It is wrong!

I  bet everyone of you is against knocking down the Bostwick building. Imagine this:

"You know I heard a guy in the KKK used to own that building sooooo its gotta go. Everyone from "out of town" says so! It must be true! "

This is what you all sound like. Grow up and respect the past. This is Jacksonville and we do not do things like "everyone else."  We have to bind together and hold together every little thing we can that sets us apart from the strip mall and franchise world.  A huge part of that is retaining our history.  The school name is part of that now. Please join me in the desire to save what we can not get back (ever).  The Bostwick building is a good example. We should do everything we can to hold on to that structure and keep Nathan Bedford Forrest from being renamed too.

[thelakelander]

okay so here goes...

Please name the contradictions.  Again you guys are making up some emotional BS to misdirect from the real discussion.

Here's an example. Either there is a contradiction in the position taken between the first post and the rest or it's just straight up hypocritical.  An accusation is tossed out that every one else has decided that their culture is superior.  However, a review of previous posts suggest the guy making the accusation is doing exactly what he accuses everyone else of.

I get it guys.  According to you all then one culture is superior to the other.

No. I've been under the assumption that this was your position based off your comments in the previous 18 pages of this thread. Here's a few old quotes that led me to this assumption.

Divisive for who? The only reason NBF's name is under question is because someone allowed it to be marketed that way. This is the result of a marketing/political campaign that is not helping children or people.

Racist? The only people making all this about race are those who find it offensive.  They are creating the division. History does not change. They were simply taught to believe the wrong things.Their offense and ignorance do not trump blood in the soil, our historical identity, or the facts of the matter. Even if they take the name away it will not change history....

I do not really believe that the informed or truly native Black Americans find this offensive. If they did they would not seek out the neighborhoods assigned to schools named after confederates to live.  They know where they live and know it is also part of their culture too.

You have no basis to rename this school. If it does get re-named and it is not named after a confederate then it is racism at work. Period. Again I would love to see it renamed to a Black confederate's name. That would teach the kids that Southern describes them as well.

If you name it after another Confederate at least it does not seem like you are attacking our Culture.

It is everyone's culture that lives in Jacksonville...if you do not identify with it then that is a shame. However it is still your culture. Renaming is the wrong thing to do.

[Sgarey123]

Alright I will take your bait this time and "go on the defensive" again.
You liked your post and you worked hard putting that together so it deserves a real response.

My statement is based off the fact that you are all willing to make one group happy (maybe) while hurting another.  You are not naming a new school. You are removing an existing piece of tradition!  What makes one group more important than the other? It seems obvious to me that you all have that worked out.  One must be more superior than the other.  I said this because I implored you all to think about the ideals set forth in the Civil Rights movement.  Ideals like equality, diversity, and multiculturalism. They are being swept aside.

By all the statements I have read, it is more important to please people that are offended and foreign than offend the people who were honored (NBF Alums, historians and natives). 

This is wrong. The name has been in existence for 54 years and yet some guy from out of town can come here and change it.  What happened to "When in Rome?"

All the quotes you listed (even out of context) have nothing wrong with them.  There is no contradiction. I seriously wish more Black folks appreciated their forefathers involvement in the Confederate army. I find it amazing how many pictures of Black confederates there are.  I also find it amazing  how many Black Confederates collected pensions later in life.  The most amazing thing, however, is that there is no push to document and portray this fact. I wonder why?

Nathan Bedford Forrest had 43 Freedman troops. To pull his name off that school dishonors him and all who served for him in the war.  Wouldn't it be better to teach kids about these facts instead of just rushing to aid a emotional and ignorant plea to remove the name?  One would think so....it would teach those kids a few things. It might even make them love their region, respect their home and listen to their elders once again.

[thelakelander]

I wish in 1959, ideals like equality, diversity, and multiculturalism would have been accepted by the Duval County School System.  It's pretty inaccurate to attempt to wrap your position in those words. If that were the case, we would not be having this discussion today because the school would have never been named to disrespect the majority of the city's population at the time. Jacksonville owes Forrest nothing.

In fact, it owes Dignan (now Confederate Park), a former chairman of the local Board of Public Works, a lot more than a controversial figure with no relationship to our community.  However, I don't see you saying anything about that. Why is that renaming good but changing N.B. Forrest wrong?  You've never answered that repeated question.

[Sgarey123]

Remember that no one can prove the middle finger theory. I went to a great deal of trouble to outline a more logical reason for the name choice.  Just go back and read.   

It is hilarious that you wish the ideals we mentioned were present back then. They were in the making! The real test is if they still apply now that black Americans are not really a minority in big cities. Will these ideals help other minorities or was it just for black people? 

The Nathan Bedford Forrest eradication is the first test and we are failing miserably to show fairness.

I do not know much about Dignan. The decision was made over a century ago.  Post some info...its just another road on this thread.

Please reconsider your positions on Forrest high school. The bigger picture is at stake here. We must not lose our way.

[thelakelander]

^That's what I'd like to know.  I'm actually a proud black southern boy and I'm not that obsessed.

[Sgarey123]

I have seen no facts.  Just emotional tactics meant to smear or misdirect from real issue. 

[Tacachale]

Last night I did some research on the history of Jacksonville's high and middle schools. I didn't do any on elementary schools, there's just too many. The list also leaves out some schools that have since closed (such as Stanton Junior High), but you get the picture.

High Schools
•   1868 Stanton College Preparatory School (Florida's first real African-American school, made 1-12 in 1917. It became a high school in the 1940s, moved to its current location in 1953 and became a magnet in 1981) – named for Edwin M. Stanton, Secretary of War under Abraham Lincoln
•   1922 Douglas Anderson School of the Arts (originally South Jacksonville School # 107, serving grades 1-9. It was renamed for Anderson in 1945 and became a high school from 1955-1968. It re-opened as an arts magnet in 1985)– originally an African-American school, named  for local civil rights leader Douglas Anderson
•   1923 Darnell-Cookman Middle/High School, School of the Medical Arts (became a high school following a merger of previous African-American schools; Bethune-Cookman University also grew out of this). Originally the Cookman Institute, the name commemorates its original founders, the reverends S.B. Darnell and Alfred Cookman.
•   1927: Andrew Jackson – named for Andrew Jackson, Jacksonville's namesake, military governor of Florida and U.S. president
•   1928: Robert E. Lee – named for leading Confederate general Robert E. Lee
•   1929 (rebuilt in 1949) Baldwin Middle-Senior High School – named for the town, itself named for Florida, Atlantic and Gulf Central Railroad president Dr. Abel Seymour Baldwin
•   1937: Duncan U. Fletcher High School – named for U.S. Senator and former Mayor of Jacksonville Duncan U. Fletcher, who secured the federal grant to build the school
•   1954: Paxon School for Advanced Studies (originally Paxon Field Junior-Senior High School; made a magnet in 1996) – named for the former Paxon Air Field where the school  is located
•   1955: Terry Parker High School – named for local philanthropist H. Terry Parker, who donated the land for the school
•   1956: Englewood High School – named for the Englewood neighborhood
•   1957: Jean Ribault High School – named for French explorer Jean Ribault, who visited Northeast Florida and the St. Johns River in 1562
•   1959: Nathan Bedford Forrest High School – named for Confederate general Nathan Bedford Forrest
•   1964: Samuel W. Wolfson – named for local businessman Samuel W. Wolfson, owner of the Jacksonville Braves and Suns
•   1965: William M. Raines High School – named for local educator William Marion Raines, principal of Matthew Gilbert High School from 1938-1950
•   1969 (Reorganized and renamed in 1997): Frank H. Peterson Academies of Technology – unknown
•   1970: Sandalwood High School – named for the neighborhood of Sandalwood
•   1971: Edward H. White High School – named for astronaut Edward Higgins White,  the first American to walk in space; killed in training in 1967
•   1977: A. Philip Randolph Academies of Technology – named for local civil rights and labor leader Asa Philip Randolph
•   1990: First Coast High School - named for the regional designation First Coast
•   1990: Mandarin High School – named for the neighborhood of Mandarin
•   2010: Atlantic Coast High School – general reference to the region
•   Duval High School: opened 1873, rebuilt in 1908 after the Great Fire, closed in 1927 as several more high schools were built. Named for the county, itself named for William Pope Duval, Florida's first non-military governor


Middle Schools
•   1923: Kirby-Smith Middle School (previously Kirby-Smith High School before 1992) – named for Edmond Kirby Smith, Confederate general from St. Augustine and subsequently an educator at Sewanee, the University of the South
•   1923 Darnell-Cookman Middle/High School, School of the Medical Arts – see above
•   1927 Matthew W. Gilbert Middle School (originally elementary; added junior high in 1939, renamed for Gilbert in 1950, became Gilbert Junior-Senior High School in 1952, then a junior high in 1971, with 7th grade only from 1972-1990) – named for Bethel Baptist Institutional Church pastor Matthew W. Gilbert, who founded the Florida Baptist Academy, an early African American school
•   1928 Julia E. Landon Middle School (originally Landon High School, made a middle school in 1964) – named for South Jacksonville educator Julia Landon
•   1929 (rebuilt in 1949): Baldwin Middle-Senior High School – see above
•   1940: Alfred I. DuPont Middle School (originally Alfred I. DuPont High School, transitioned to middle school in 1992) – named for Alfred I. DuPont, locally important business magnate and founder of the DuPont Trust and Nemours
•   1940: Lake Shore Middle School – named for the neighborhood of Lake Shore
•   1953: Eugene J. Butler Middle School (originally Eugene J. Butler Junior-Senior High School) – unknown
•   1961: Jefferson Davis Middle School – named for Confederate President Jefferson Davis
•   1952: James Weldon Johnson Middle School – named for James Weldon Johnson, prominent author and civil rights leader from Jacksonville
•   1957: Paxon Middle School – split from Paxon Field Junior-Senior High School
•   1959: Jean Ribault Middle School – split from Jean Ribault High School
•   1961: Arlington Middle School – named for the neighborhood of Arlington
•   1963: Joseph Stilwell Middle School – named for Joseph Stilwell, World War II general born in Palatka
•   1964: Duncan U. Fletcher Middle School – split from Fletcher High School
•   1964: Fort Caroline Middle School – named for the nearby Fort Caroline monument, one of the first European settlements in the continental U.S.
•   1966: J.E.B. Stuart Middle School – named for Confederate general James Ewell Brown "J.E.B." Stuart
•   1969: Highlands Middle School (made magnet in 2005) – named for the neighborhood of Highlands
•   1977: Mayport Middle School – named for the neighborhood of Mayport
•   Before 1986: Southside Middle School – named for the neighborhood of Southside
•   1990: Mandarin Middle School – named for the neighborhood of Mandarin
•   1990: Landmark Middle School – appears to be a generic name
•   1998: Twin Lakes Academy Middle School – named for the two ponds located on the school grounds
•   1999?: Northwestern Middle School – named for the Northwestern region of Jacksonville
•   2000: LaVilla School of the Arts – named for the neighborhood of LaVilla
•   2002: Kernan Middle School – named for Kernan Boulevard, itself named for Kernan Hodges, local philanthropist and landowner with her husband George
•   2002: Oceanway Middle School (branched off of Oceanway Elementary) – named for the neighborhood of Oceanway
•   2004: John E. Ford K-8 (expanded from John E. Ford Elementary) – unknown
•   2009: Westview K-8 – appears to be a generic reference

[Tacachale]

As you can see, Jacksonville appears to have 7 schools named after Civil War figures, when we add in Stonewall Jackson Elementary (1965).

The one with the closest period of connection to the Civil War is Stanton High School (1868), a historically African-American school named for Union Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton.

The other six are named for Confederate figures. Two were built in the 1920s: Kirby-Smith Middle School (formerly Kirby-Smith High School, 1923) and Robert E. Lee High School (1928). Of them, Edwin Kirby-Smith was a local.

The other four were built from 1959-1966: Forrest High School (1959), Jefferson Davis Middle (1961), Stonewall Jackson Elementary (1965) and J.E.B. Stuart Middle (1966). As we've said before, these were all built as segregated whites-only schools after Brown v. Board of Education ruled this unconstitutional. They are also all related and located within a few miles of each other in the suburban Westside: Jefferson Davis was built as Forrest's feeder school, and JEB Stuart was branched off when Forrest moved to its current location. Stonewall Jackson is one of the elementary schools serving this area (it's currently a feeder for JEB Stuart).

This gives the lie to the idea that Jacksonville had a long tradition of naming schools for Confederates - before 1959 there were only two middle or high schools so named, plus one named for a Union figure, and there have been none since 1966. As should also be clear, the vast majority of our schools are named for local figures or places. Forrest definitely stands out in that regard.