Who was Nathan Bedford Forrest?

[Cheshire Cat]

Sure it does Sgarey, sure it does.  lol  By the way Ock and I are very dear friends and I am afraid he would not agree with the above judgement about my competence.  lmao  You really are a mess, I'll give you that.  Of course you are the sane and "tolerant" one and the rest of us are a "mob of fools" and "intolerant" to boot so you tell us.   Makes sense to me.     It's all of us, yes.....all of us.....

Now about that petition you want to sign in support of keeping the Forrest name, they are requiring that you sign it with your actual legal name. You already know that though don't you, as well as you know the Museum of Southern History and the Friends of Forrest group?  Seeing as how you have not posted a single word under you own name on this thread, how is it you will be able to come from behind the computer screen into the open and sign something that will tell the world how you feel and put your name to it?  Of course you could man up and put your name to your writings here.  Why don't you do that or are you not really serious about all that you have dumped online here?

[I-10east]

Here's another high school naming controversy out in Cali. In this case, the backlash is the over name of the mascot.

www.ktla.com/2013/11/07/coachella-valley-arab-high-school-mascot-called-gross-stereotyping-2/#aszz2k6dIELCH

[Cheshire Cat]

Here's another high school naming controversy out in Cali. In this case, the backlash is the over name of the mascot.

www.ktla.com/2013/11/07/coachella-valley-arab-high-school-mascot-called-gross-stereotyping-2/#aszz2k6dIELCH

Well at least they didn't name the school "The Arab". I am sure this is meant to honor the history of the Arab people in the area, you know....by extension seeing as how Arabia is part of the world.  Now they want to kick
"The Arab" out of the school in Hollywood Hills.  How intolerant!  Wait until Sgarey123 gets wind of this.

(sarcasm)

[I-10east]

I know that they had to play this song in pep-rallies some years back. Sorry I couldn't resist.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcuAw77J8_Y

[ForrestGrad]

This is copied directly from the Harper's Weekly News, for April 30,1864

No apologist rewrite of history or excuse making can change the truth of what happen.


THE MASSACRE AT FORT
PILLOW.

We give on page 284 a sketch of the horrible MASSACRE AT FORT PILLOW. The annals of savage warfare nowhere record a more inhuman, fiendish butchery than this, perpetrated by the representatives of the " superior civilization" of the States in rebellion. It can not be wondered at that our officers and soldiers in the West are determined to avenge, at all opportunities, the cold-blooded murder of their comrades ; and yet we can but contemplate with pain the savage practices which rebel inhumanity thus forces upon the service. The account of the massacre as telegraphed from Cairo is as follows :

On the 12th inst. the rebel General Forrest appeared before Fort Pillow, near Columbus, Kentucky, attacking it with considerable vehemence. This was followed up by frequent demands for its surrender, which were refused by Major Booth, who commanded the fort. The fight was then continued up until 3 P.M., when Major Booth was killed, and the rebels, in large numbers, swarmed over the intrenchments. Up to that time comparatively few of our men had been killed; but immediately upon occupying the place the rebels commenced an indiscriminate butchery of the whites and blacks, including the wounded. Both white and black were bayoneted, shot, or sabred; even dead bodies were horribly mutilated, and children of seven and eight years, and several negro women killed in cold blood. Soldiers unable to speak from wounds were shot dead, and their bodies rolled down the banks into the river. The dead and wounded negroes were piled in heaps and burned, and several citizens, who had joined our forces for protection, were killed or wounded. Out of the garrison of six hundred only two hundred remained alive. Three hundred of those massacred were negroes; five were buried alive. Six guns were captured by the rebels, and carried off, including two 10-pound Parrotts, and two 12-pound howitzers.

This is an article that was posted in a Union newspaper.  It's unfortunate that it's being considered irrefutable fact.  Probably a more accurate source for what happened at Fort Pillow would be the Congressional Record.  According to that, Mr Forrest was brought before a panel for possible war crimes, and was exonerated.  He didn't actually "immediately upon occupying the place the rebels commenced an indiscriminate butchery of the whites and blacks;" rather, he demanded the Fort's occupants' surrender.  They refused to surrender.  This was war; Forrest was tasked with taking the fort; if there was no surrender, then he had to keep fighting them.  Probably the wrongdoer in this situation was the leader at the Fort, who fled and left the soldiers to fend for themselves -- telling them that surrender was not an option.
If the Duval County School Board researches the biography of N B Forrest and determines that he should not have a school named after him, then that's a decision made fairly.  It isn't fair to bombard them with sensationalism (NBF is NOT the founder of the KKK), and make decisions based on that.  If the name is changed, it will be exciting to see the high school become an "A" school the following year, since this is apparently the problem with the school.

[Cheshire Cat]

I know that they had to play this song in pep-rallies some years back. Sorry I couldn't resist.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcuAw77J8_Y

Simply a celebration of Arab culture right? 

[Cheshire Cat]

This is copied directly from the Harper's Weekly News, for April 30,1864

No apologist rewrite of history or excuse making can change the truth of what happen.


THE MASSACRE AT FORT
PILLOW.

We give on page 284 a sketch of the horrible MASSACRE AT FORT PILLOW. The annals of savage warfare nowhere record a more inhuman, fiendish butchery than this, perpetrated by the representatives of the " superior civilization" of the States in rebellion. It can not be wondered at that our officers and soldiers in the West are determined to avenge, at all opportunities, the cold-blooded murder of their comrades ; and yet we can but contemplate with pain the savage practices which rebel inhumanity thus forces upon the service. The account of the massacre as telegraphed from Cairo is as follows :

On the 12th inst. the rebel General Forrest appeared before Fort Pillow, near Columbus, Kentucky, attacking it with considerable vehemence. This was followed up by frequent demands for its surrender, which were refused by Major Booth, who commanded the fort. The fight was then continued up until 3 P.M., when Major Booth was killed, and the rebels, in large numbers, swarmed over the intrenchments. Up to that time comparatively few of our men had been killed; but immediately upon occupying the place the rebels commenced an indiscriminate butchery of the whites and blacks, including the wounded. Both white and black were bayoneted, shot, or sabred; even dead bodies were horribly mutilated, and children of seven and eight years, and several negro women killed in cold blood. Soldiers unable to speak from wounds were shot dead, and their bodies rolled down the banks into the river. The dead and wounded negroes were piled in heaps and burned, and several citizens, who had joined our forces for protection, were killed or wounded. Out of the garrison of six hundred only two hundred remained alive. Three hundred of those massacred were negroes; five were buried alive. Six guns were captured by the rebels, and carried off, including two 10-pound Parrotts, and two 12-pound howitzers.

This is an article that was posted in a Union newspaper.  It's unfortunate that it's being considered irrefutable fact.  Probably a more accurate source for what happened at Fort Pillow would be the Congressional Record.  According to that, Mr Forrest was brought before a panel for possible war crimes, and was exonerated.  He didn't actually "immediately upon occupying the place the rebels commenced an indiscriminate butchery of the whites and blacks;" rather, he demanded the Fort's occupants' surrender.  They refused to surrender.  This was war; Forrest was tasked with taking the fort; if there was no surrender, then he had to keep fighting them.  Probably the wrongdoer in this situation was the leader at the Fort, who fled and left the soldiers to fend for themselves -- telling them that surrender was not an option.
If the Duval County School Board researches the biography of N B Forrest and determines that he should not have a school named after him, then that's a decision made fairly.  It isn't fair to bombard them with sensationalism (NBF is NOT the founder of the KKK), and make decisions based on that.  If the name is changed, it will be exciting to see the high school become an "A" school the following year, since this is apparently the problem with the school.

There a a number of biographies and accounts of what happened but you know what, the request for change is now "officially" in the works.  Commenting here is not going to stop the process.  You guys gave it your best shot but looks to me like no one on the school board bought your version of history.  Time to move on.

[Sgarey123]

Sure would like Ock to respond to your quote. Your competence is normally effective but this time we disagree and I found your tactics trivial, emotional, and bully-boyish. You were like the prisoner in Trading Places (Movie) that said "Yeah".  Not one real conceptual counter! I did not know that much about the museum though.  I will check it out.

Stephen played siege tactics but at least he conceded that we are ALL southern. I can respect that but not the KKK drama. Lakelander and Kbhanson were at least working with me but they are set in position and wont change either. 

Debate in front of people isn't discovery for most due to ego.  Its for the audience. I did learn though.

I do respect anything that has to do with Historical preservation. I hope you keep that up for more than just one group.

I love my home. I have  learned a lot through being tolerant. I used to be you. I used to think the opposition had no right to speak or think.
Now I accept all opinions as long as they are logical. 

Hey forrestgrad....its not over. Read the article......vitti has to vote and then board again.

We can still learn from past generations. I miss them. They knew more collectively than we do. We are learning now what they learned in the 30's and 40's.  I bet the lot of you has never even been in a fight or been hungry.

Who I am is not important to the debate really but if you post that link. I will sign it! you can narrow it down from there.  

[Cheshire Cat]

Sgarey123.  My comments were geared directly in response to the prattle you offered as fact in tandem with your declarations of being the only one in the discussion who loves Jacksonville as well as referring to everyone who had a view different than your own as a foolish mob, haters of their own southern history, intolerant, bullies, trivial, emotional etc. etc. etc.  I don't tolerate that sort of nonsense. 

Now as far as the southern thing and roots, you have no idea of my thoughts about the "entirety" of southern history nor how much of a roll my family and ancestors played in the creation of that history before and during the Civil War, including two Confederate Generals as well as Confederate soldiers in the Calvary and Infantry. Some survived the war many others did not.

This discussion was all about one man and one school. You claim Forrest had no connection to the KKK yet other sources and documents say he was it's creator.  You also say his hand was pushed and he had to murder all of the men, mostly black, in Fort Pillow, cause well, it was war.  There is plenty in the way of documentation that indicates Forrest ordered the attack on men trapped in the fort and bottom line is if he did or didn't this all happened on his watch and the buck stops with him.  He was also a slave owner and slave catcher, documents and history also support this truth.  But most importantly he had nothing to do with Jacksonville, nothing.

The war was fought, the south lost and that is that.  Having the name of a man with such a dubious past on a Jacksonville school does nothing to preserve southern history and it is foolish to suggest that it does or portray a name change as a precursor to the demise of southern history and heritage or as you put it southern flavor.  I am very proud to be born and bred southern with family roots going back to the first arrivals on this continent of English/Scott's who made their way into Virginia and throughout the south, Carolina, Tenn, Ga, Louisiana,Mississippi, Texas, Florida and many other states. One of my ancestors was one of the generals sent to Olustee. I honor those of my ancestors who were willing to risk their lives for a cause they believed in.  They were brave individuals, but that does not mean I have to honor the covenant of slavery or the other gross manifestations of the time which included the creation of the KKK.  My great great grandfather served in the Confederate Infantry, survived the war and then returned to rebuild his church that was burned down.  Was he a bad man? No.  Did he have slaves?  No  Yet he fought next to his friends and relatives through a deep sense of loyalty to those he loved.  I get that about this war and I honestly think that in your eyes this is still about loyalty to relations in the south while negating the horrors that the conflict inflicted upon both sides.  History cannot be changed but as enlightened and evolving, people we should be insightful and mature enough to understand that history is a fluid thing and now is the time in history to admit that much of what was fought for by our ancestors was in it's essence flatly wrong and that statement is directed to the idea that anyone has the right to enslave another person for their own enrichment.  The pain, devastation and debasing of human beings at that time in history should be remembered but fighting to keep them enslaved is something I will never honor even considering the time in history this all took place.  So if you are looking for some sort of concession on my part to your beliefs, it's not going to happen.  I love my heritage and my people deeply and at the same time can fully acknowledge that they were mistaken in some of their beliefs. 

On another note, if you want to sign a petition supporting the Forrest name you will have to do your own homework.  I do not intend to try and deduce who you may be depending upon those signatures, I don't need to because I know who you are.  I just think you should be man enough to put your real name to everything that you insisted is fact. That by the was has nothing to do with ego and everything to do with standing behind what you say in the same open way I have and you are clearly unwilling to do so, which I find fascinating. 

[Jaxson]

I think that the context in which Nathan Bedford Forrest High School was named can be more distressing than the man it was intended to honor.  Saint or sinner, Nathan Bedford Forrest's name was put on a school at a time when the centennial of the Civil War was approaching AND when many Southerners disagreed with the Brown v. Board of Education ruling by the Supreme Court.  If indeed the school naming was intended to be a thumb of the nose at the federal government and not a sincere tribute to someone historic, I see the need to change a school's name not for the sake of being 'politically correct,' but for building bridges between the races to show that we have progressed as a school district.

[Cheshire Cat]

I think that the context in which Nathan Bedford Forrest High School was named can be more distressing than the man it was intended to honor.  Saint or sinner, Nathan Bedford Forrest's name was put on a school at a time when the centennial of the Civil War was approaching AND when many Southerners disagreed with the Brown v. Board of Education ruling by the Supreme Court.  If indeed the school naming was intended to be a thumb of the nose at the federal government and not a sincere tribute to someone historic, I see the need to change a school's name not for the sake of being 'politically correct,' but for building bridges between the races to show that we have progressed as a school district.

This is another aspect of this argument that the apologists simply refuse to see or acknowledge John and it truly is a shame.  If one really cares about community they should have the depth of character to understand that keeping a thorn in the side of Jacksonville for more than fifty years now over this naming and what it meant is something that we should do and now the process is underway.  It's a healing thing which is long overdue and frankly I don't think some will ever understand that.

[Cheshire Cat]

I think you are correct Stephen. 

[Sgarey123]

I didn't get "name calley." But I did get an opinion finally from the cat!

Funny how until I called her out she was more interested in who I was than what I had to say?  Why is that? Ms. Melendez? Now you know apparently?  How is that?

Over the years I have watched as incremental changes took place. Each time it failed they would wait a few years and try again and again. As the older people have died off these changes are speeding up. Some good, some really bad. This one is bad.

I am not ashamed of anything I have said but I have no reason to give you the information. "Do your own homework." I hear this site is famous for that right?

By the way:

1) I never claimed NBF had no connection to KKK. You are delirious. Your friend will know if he did or not. I always heard he disowned the club. I think that is enough to pass. 
2) I never said his hand was pushed. I did say it was war. I also said the Yankees were far more cruel than he ever was. Of course they invaded his land but I guess he lost so what he did was bad and all the others throughout history are just angels now?

We have strung up one man's legacy for no other reason than a little national attention. We are embarrassed by our forefathers decisions.  His favorite town that is now 90% black renamed his park where he is buried, a tourist attraction even. Why? Because some buffoon non-existent club claims him as a founder (which is apparently not known as a fact)? 

Now Jacksonville has been tapped to legitimize this? How is it even possible? It smells like Federal influence and rotten.  Now 54 classes of students from there are going to be disenfranchised. 54 years of students! That makes it historical and special to those of us from public schools.

The whole things stinks and the best thing of all is this site has no influence whatsoever. If it did then my points would have hit home.

Post again...I will too.  You are all wrong and are opening Pandora's box. Hopefully Vitti will come to his senses.

[Sgarey123]

7 generations of Dares.....and they all completely saw into the future on what you say is acceptable to think. Nice work making that one up.


I do not have to prove anything. You proved it with your own words. You are intolerant of a culture that you lived within your whole life. You prove this by judging a known great man based on what some others think outside of Jax. He passed the test just 6 years ago. Why now? How?

You beat kimberly daniels without getting thrown in jail and I wont hold this craziness against you. However, it is not right to allow this to be done to such a man. He deserves better and so do the 54 classes who will not have a high school name in common with future generations of students. It is a lynch mob....started and endorsed by outsiders with very little affiliation to our history and no affiliation to our town. We should not have to apologize! This is our Culture!

One more thing:   

The takeaway from polyneux comment's to me boils down to a single comment in which they say "I'm of the opinion that once a school is named it should stay named".  Ya see the thing is that this is the opinion of one person, the poster.  Right now there are over 156,000 signatures that say the name should be changed along with a poll that also said 80% of the people of Jacksonville want the name change as well.  It would appear that in the opinion of most folks, up to 80% that the name needs to go. That is what really matters. 

80%?  Untrue!Are you getting paid for this?  This is pure cr@p. This comes back from the first guy to oppose. NOT TRUE! How can you even show your face in this town? Are you getting paid for this? Holy Cr@p!

One more thing...Please post...but use a "free proxy". Google it. That way madame "turnonherownpeople" wont be able to cash in on your identity. She won't ask you if you have "P.O Box."  Free speech...yeah bs.

[kbhanson3]

I think that the context in which Nathan Bedford Forrest High School was named can be more distressing than the man it was intended to honor.  Saint or sinner, Nathan Bedford Forrest's name was put on a school at a time when the centennial of the Civil War was approaching AND when many Southerners disagreed with the Brown v. Board of Education ruling by the Supreme Court.  If indeed the school naming was intended to be a thumb of the nose at the federal government and not a sincere tribute to someone historic, I see the need to change a school's name not for the sake of being 'politically correct,' but for building bridges between the races to show that we have progressed as a school district.

This is another aspect of this argument that the apologists simply refuse to see or acknowledge John and it truly is a shame.  If one really cares about community they should have the depth of character to understand that keeping a thorn in the side of Jacksonville for more than fifty years now over this naming and what it meant is something that we should do and now the process is underway.  It's a healing thing which is long overdue and frankly I don't think some will ever understand that.

Sadly I think there is an unspeakable motivation for many who want to preserve the name.  Their minds are closed to understanding the need for healing in our city's race relations.  They don't want the healing if it is going to touch their grand southern heritage.  And so the debate is futile.  You just can not persuade a mind that is closed.