Laura Street Trio developers will seek 'substantial public investment'

[vicupstate]

I don't think $20mm for renovations to all four buildings plus a new building is excessive, considering the impact this could have.  If completed, the value of virtually every building and parcel on the Northbank would rise.   How much more valuable would Chamblin's be if a new hotel and college are just steps away (as opposed to run down vacant buildings)?   

[tufsu1]

That is true - but let's think aboout future tax obligations for a property the size/value of Laura St trio when it is complete and filled with occupants/lessees.  Do you honestly think for a minute that it's going to generate close to $20M in tax revenues over the course of its existence over the ~5-10 years after it is completed? 

no....I'm guessing they want $10-$12 million for renovations and the remaining $8-$10 million in tax credits over say a 20-year period

[simms3]

I don't think $20mm for renovations to all four buildings plus a new building is excessive, considering the impact this could have.  If completed, the value of virtually every building and parcel on the Northbank would rise.   How much more valuable would Chamblin's be if a new hotel and college are just steps away (as opposed to run down vacant buildings)?   

I disagree.  Tax values won't go up until vacancy comes down and rents go up.  I was poking around the assessor's website and looking at the tax bills of various DT buildings with large vacancies (BOA, Everbank, Modis, Enterprise Center), and was actually kind of astounded.  Each property owner has been able to successfully appeal their invoices down as their vacancies have gone up, but I still think DT buildings are over-taxed for their current and potential income streams.

Commercial property isn't like housing, in that a fixed up property intangibly raises the value of those around it by selling for a higher $ amount - commercial prop taxes are largely based on income streams, as is a building valuation or what it would sell for.  In the case of DT, income streams are so weak that no buildings are even selling at all, not even for discounts.

Maybe it can be argued that a rehabbed Laura energizes a corner of downtown and removes blight, but there's no evidence that all of a sudden tenants will want to locate downtown because of this.

That is true - but let's think aboout future tax obligations for a property the size/value of Laura St trio when it is complete and filled with occupants/lessees.  Do you honestly think for a minute that it's going to generate close to $20M in tax revenues over the course of its existence over the ~5-10 years after it is completed? 

no....I'm guessing they want $10-$12 million for renovations and the remaining $8-$10 million in tax credits over say a 20-year period

Agreed-that sounds likely.  I guess in Jax it's common to receive enough tax credits as incentives to last 15-20+ years.  My thinking has to change there since I'm used to reading about tax credits on a much shorter term (or no incentives of any sort at all where I live now, actually - the opposite where developers have to pay tens of millions of dollars just to play).

[Jason]

simms, you're like a friggin statistical encyclopedia!!    Thanks for all of the information you share.

In my opinion, this redevlopment will be money well spent and should do a lot to help jumpstart that corner/block. 

[CityLife]

"Public investment" does not necessarily only mean local investment. Part of the deal could also include state and federal tax credits...as there are federal and state credits for rehabbing historic buildings. Not to mention enterprise/empowerment zone credits, and god only knows how many other programs there are.

We should all probably wait and see what they are specifically asking for before jumping to conclusions. Especially if a significant amount of credits/incentives aren't even from local coffers.

[Tacachale]

^Yeah, right? How about we see what the incentives are and where they can come before we determine the value of the plan.

[icarus]

I think you have to frame the debate on an impact basis. 

1. All of the discussions on here regarding sports, conventions, etc. decry the lack of hotel rooms in Downtown Jacksonville ... this project injects a flagged hotel into the heart of downtown.

2. New restaurant venues will bring more people downtown which also helps existing locations.

3. Moving some undisclosed higher education facility into the Barnett building brings younger crowds downtown and increases likelihood of staying downtown after or in-between classes ... again more potential revenue for businesses.

4. Marketing and visual impact for other businesses and developers looking at downtown ... a finished and active corridor from Hemming to the Landing would encourage further development.

5. An active downtown corridor would further stimulate demand for housing (beyond unaffordable condos).

There are a lot of intangibles beyond just construction cost. But, you also have to keep in mind the cost of stabilizing the Trio as the new construction is abutted against it and the cost of renovating those structures.  As to the Barnett building, I have toured that building on several occasions.  On one such, a remediation/mold inspector advised that we should not be breathing the air in several  of the rooms we were in and I am not going to even discuss all of the asbestos issues. The environmental issues were so severe and pervasive that it made no financial sense on any level.  Cameron Kuhn bore some of the remediation cost but I am sure there is still quite a bit to be addressed.

Of course, it is a cost versus benefit equation and its outcome has to be compared to what is happening organically already.

Long and short, we have to wait and see what they are asking for and why before any judgment is made.

[Kerry]

In 2006 the City of Oklahoma City decided to invest $19 million to help reopen the long closed downtown Skirvin Hotel.  The hotel is now ranked as one of the top 5 hotels in the entire Hilton chain.  Since then no fewer than 7 other downtown hotels have opened or are under construction.  4 more are in the planning stages.

Number of downtown Hotels built in the previous 25 years: 1

The moral of the story - if you don't invest in yourself no one else is going to.

[thelakelander]

This project aside, $20 million is a drop in the bucket for the ultimate amount of subsidies needed to launch something of this magnitude off the ground in downtown Jax.  I'm sure, there's more to come as other proposed developments get far enough to make their financing gaps publicly known.  If we can't paying for downtown revitalization of this type, maybe it's time to pull up our pants and get off the pot.

[Kerry]

If we can't paying for downtown revitalization of this type, maybe it's time to pull up our pants and get off the pot.

You have to decide what kind of city you want because the city is only a means to a way of life. - Enrique Penalosa (former Mayor of Bogota, CO)

Here is one of my favorite presentations from him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=W03qBlwtRJI

[jcjohnpaint]

Right, but most of our local politicians have decided what kind of city they want... it just does not include the rest of the city.  I don't think it is very hard to figure out what kind of city Richard Clark wants.  Although it seems like all decisions are made by him and his kin. 
I think we are going to have to get them off the pot. 
I am sitting patiently, waiting to vote!

Thanks for the link. 

[Kerry]

Thanks for the link.

This is on a different site but I maintain a list of books, articles, lectures, etc... for sharing and reference.

http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic-issues/33058-new-urbanism-library.html

[thelakelander]

All the countless number of visioning plans over the last 40 years point to what type of city residents dream of.  Everything at this point is continued recycled unimplemented ideas.  Fund implementation of those dreams has always been our stumbling block.

[Kerry]

Yep and so here we are - are we going to fund it or not?

Of course, there is a lot of stuff the City could that is 100% free and would go a long ways.  For example, remove all parking requirements for any development in the Core (and we can use whatever definition of 'Core' you want).

Another one (although not free) is a railroad quite zone through the Southbank.  CSX is one of the largest promoters of quite zones and in the shadows of their own headquarters building - train horns through residential areas.  Go figure.

Anyhow, I digress.

[thelakelander]

The tracks through the Southbank are FEC.  There's not much CSX can do about that.