Offshore Oil Drilling and the Oil Rig Disaster in the Gulf

[RiversideGator]

Um.  why are we discussing drilling in the nature preserves rather than simply doing this?

Wouldnt this actually drop the prices immediately?

Glad to see you making one of the most illogical of liberal arguments.   

First, libs say that supply and demand imbalances do not lead to higher prices.  Then, when they realize that 75% of Americans favor additional drilling in the US to bring down prices (which anyone with a rudimentary understanding of economics knows is true), they float the idea that we should instead release oil from the strategic petroleum reserve.  Well, the obvious answer to this is that releasing oil from the SPR would have some small effect on prices but it would not have nearly the effect of allowing more drilling since it is a finite source of oil as opposed to the far larger sources available through expanded drilling.  Also, there is the small issue that this oil is set aside by the government for use in case of dire emergency, such as a war, and it probably should not be used to tinker with the market on a short term basis.

[RiversideGator]

And sorry, there's no parallel between Hartmann and Limbaugh, none at all.

Agreed.  Limbaugh has some 20 million listeners.  Hartmann has 20 listeners.   

And try to find a citation where the word "scholar' and Limbaugh appear on the same page.

The entry on wikipedia says of Hartmann:  "He is a lay scholar of the history and textual analysis of the United States Constitution, and attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (AD/HD), electronic voting fraud, and environmental issues like global warming."

Wow.  It sure sounds like this man is highly educated.  It does at least if you dont know that a "lay scholar" is someone who is self-taught with no actual academic credentials.   

[RiversideGator]

Thanks for the definition of a political contribution.   Its very deft.   However I was asking about your definition of 'corruption' and 'influence peddling'.

Perhaps you would care to define 'eggplant' instead?

I rejected your question and its premise.  Hence the answer you see.

[RiversideGator]

River. Im sorry, you have clearly come back from some time in the future, in a reality that hasnt happened yet and don't realize the time slip.

Apparently in this 'future' of yours, you 'debunk' the historical record of Prescott's treachery against both the US and its duly elected president 'many times'.

Let's see.  You claimed that "Senator Prescott Bush was caught financing Nazi's during the 40s".  You and I both know that this is patently false.  But, since it is your claim, please post ANY evidence from a legitimate source to substantiate your contention.  I dare you.   

Dare is my middle name baby.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

References include sources no less reputable than the United States National Archives.

Plus it also explores the various weaknesses and shortcomings of each of the witnesses, biographers and investigators.  In all a convincing and thorough article.

I have actually read this article before.  This quote from the article pretty much sums it all up:

While there is no suggestion that Prescott Bush was sympathetic to the Nazi cause, the documents reveal that the firm he worked for, Brown Brothers Harriman (BBH), acted as a US base for the German industrialist, Fritz Thyssen, who helped finance Hitler in the 1930s before falling out with him at the end of the decade.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

So,
1)  We were not at war with Germany in the 1930s. 
2)  It was totally legal to conduct business with German companies at that time;
3)  Bush was not a Nazi sympathizer (of course implying such is the real reason for all such posts referring to this);
4)  The tenuous connection between Bush's employer and Germany was severed at the end of the 1930s - before the US and Germany were at war.

This is roughly analogous to the US and China going to war in 2011 and you then accusing an executive at a US toy maker of treason for having had business with a Chinese toy manufacturer in 2004.  Sorry but the Bush-Nazi argument is nothing but nonsense.

Oh and one final quote from the article you cited:

The Anti-Defamation League in the US is supportive of Prescott Bush and the Bush family. In a statement last year they said that "rumours about the alleged Nazi 'ties' of the late Prescott Bush ... have circulated widely through the internet in recent years. These charges are untenable and politically motivated ... Prescott Bush was neither a Nazi nor a Nazi sympathiser."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

If you cant trust the ADL to tell the truth about Nazis, you cant trust anyone.   

[RiversideGator]

Glad to see you making one of the most illogical of liberal arguments.   Cheesy

First, libs say that supply and demand imbalances do not lead to higher prices.  Then, when they realize that 75% of Americans favor additional drilling in the US to bring down prices (which anyone with a rudimentary understanding of economics knows is true), they float the idea that we should instead release oil from the strategic petroleum reserve.  Well, the obvious answer to this is that releasing oil from the SPR would have some small effect on prices but it would not have nearly the effect of allowing more drilling since it is a finite source of oil as opposed to the far larger sources available through expanded drilling.  Also, there is the small issue that this oil is set aside by the government for use in case of dire emergency, such as a war, and it probably should not be used to tinker with the market on a short term basis.

asking a question and making an argument are still not the same thing.

Your answer sounds speculative in the extreme and certainly doesnt make the original point seem any less logical.

I think the winds are changing frankly.  Its time to stop using oil as our primary energy.  What good are all those reserves going to do in a world powered by wind, solar and nuclear energy?

Get rid of them, teach the OPEC bastards a lesson, and be done with it while we retool our industrial base and put an end to the age of petro.

I agree.  I would love to have an all electric car powered by a solar panel on my roof with all the same performance as my current ride.  The trouble is this technology does not exist now.  When it does and it is affordable, I will go buy one.  For the time being, start drilling and keep researching alternatives.

[RiversideGator]

And sorry, there's no parallel between Hartmann and Limbaugh, none at all.

Agreed.  Limbaugh has some 20 million listeners.  Hartmann has 20 listeners.   

And try to find a citation where the word "scholar' and Limbaugh appear on the same page.

The entry on wikipedia says of Hartmann:  "He is a lay scholar of the history and textual analysis of the United States Constitution, and attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (AD/HD), electronic voting fraud, and environmental issues like global warming."

Wow.  It sure sounds like this man is highly educated.  It does at least if you dont know that a "lay scholar" is someone who is self-taught with no actual academic credentials.   

like Adam Smith. The author of Wealth of Nations, for example?

Adam Smith had several degrees and in fact worked as a professor.

[RiversideGator]

Thanks for the definition of a political contribution.   Its very deft.   However I was asking about your definition of 'corruption' and 'influence peddling'.

Perhaps you would care to define 'eggplant' instead?

I rejected your question and its premise.  Hence the answer you see.

(laughing at your disengenuousness and folly) somehow I suspected such would be the case.


Continue on with the string of false nonsequitors you are no doubt unloading into the fox noise machine rapid fire disseminator.

Translation:  I have been bested again by the facts and logical argument you posted but rather than conceding I will accuse you of parroting Fox News.   

[RiversideGator]

Bush's firm had business in Germany.  One of their associates in Germany (i.e. a German) was an early supporter of Hitler in the 1930s (although he had a falling out with the Nazis by the end of the 1930s).  Bush was not a Nazi in any way.  Bush did not finance Hitler.

[RiversideGator]

Adam Smith had Two degrees at the time he wrote Wealth of Nations, Moral Philosophy and Jurisprudence.

He did not have a degree in Economics or any other related field.

In fact, to claim otherwise would be an act of lunacy since his work is considered the founding document of the study of Economics.

In otherwords, he was a self taught, Lay expert.

really sometimes your points are quite ludicrous.

What is ludicrous is to attempt to compare some unknown, uneducated, left-wing radio crank to the founding father of the study of economics.

BTW, Smith was a professor of moral philosophy at the University of Glasgow, a field which would include the study of economics.  They just used different terminology back then.  Nice try though.   
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_economy

[RiversideGator]

Bush's firm had business in Germany.  One of their associates in Germany (i.e. a German) was an early supporter of Hitler in the 1930s (although he had a falling out with the Nazis by the end of the 1930s).  Bush was not a Nazi in any way.  Bush did not finance Hitler.

Incorrect.  I suggest you try reading the article again.

I did read it again.  I suggest you do the same.   

[RiversideGator]

Translation:  I have been bested again by the facts and logical argument you posted but rather than conceding I will accuse you of parroting Fox News.   Cheesy

Your refusal to answer a simply understood question, and in fact to simply evade it at all does not constitute a 'besting' in any way that wouldnt get an 8 year old boy severely paddled and sent to bed without supper.

ok..   

[RiversideGator]

I am not the one who compared him to Thom Hartmann.   

[BridgeTroll]

Cherry picking comments as a summation of the article is misleading at best.

To read your little list, one would leave with the impression that all financial backing and activity ceased with the declaration of war, which the article makes clear is not the case.

Additionally, the claim that you asked to be proved was that Bush helped fund the Nazi's.

By your own admission he did, but at first that it wasnt illegal.

Which is not the same as 'debunking' the statement that he funded them.

As in the case of the moneys flowing into the hands of congressional supporters of Big Oil, regardless of the legality, its morally wrong and even in the 30s people knew better.

So I will take it that you concede the point and will stop these ridiculous claims of 'debunking'.

And as I said, the article itself points out the strengths and weaknesses of the individuals involved in the investigations.

But you are "cherry picking" grandpa Bush... He was one of probably millions of Americans invested in or otherwise attached to companies that helped the Nazis.  As I posted before... The Kennedys were one of the families, corporations such as Kodak, IBM, Ford , and GM helped "finance the Nazis".

[BridgeTroll]

That may be so... what I am saying is that disentangling ones self from these is probably not as easy as we think it should be.  As a boardmember of this group he had responsibilities... Once again... in hindsight he should probably have been more proactive in disassociating himself from these companies but times were a bit different then.  National Socialism was on the rise worldwide and at the very least tolerated by many prominant Americans... Joseph Kennedy being one of them. 

I think RG made a valid point regarding todays China.  If China were to start a world war next year would we paint all Americans doing business with China as "Supporting Communist Chinese?"

[RiversideGator]

I dont know how this thread went from oil drilling to Prescott Bush's alleged ties to the Nazis.  However, new documents have been declassified which show that he had a minimal involvement based on him being a partner at Brown Harriman.  It appears to have been a pro forma arrangement only rather than an active business relationship.  Here is the story (Fox News) on it:

Documents: Bush's Grandfather Directed Bank Tied to Man Who Funded Hitler

Friday, October 17, 2003

WASHINGTON â€"  President Bush's grandfather was a director of a bank seized by the federal government because of its ties to a German industrialist who helped bankroll Adolf Hitler's rise to power, government documents show.

Prescott Bush was one of seven directors of Union Banking Corp., a New York investment bank owned by a bank controlled by the Thyssen family, according to recently declassified National Archives documents reviewed by The Associated Press.

Fritz Thyssen was an early financial supporter of Hitler, whose Nazi party Thyssen believed was preferable to communism. The documents do not show any evidence Bush directly aided that effort. His position with Union Banking never was a political issue for Bush, who was elected to the Senate from Connecticut in 1952.

Reports of Bush's involvement with the seized bank have been circulating on the Internet for years and have been reported by some mainstream media. The newly declassified documents provide additional details about the Union Banking-Thyssen connection.

Trent Duffy, a spokesman for President Bush, declined to comment.

Union Banking was owned by a Dutch bank, Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaardt N.V., which was "closely affiliated" with the German conglomerate United Steel Works, according to an Oct. 5, 1942, report from the federal Office of Alien Property Custodian. The Dutch bank and the steel firm were part of the business and financial empire of Thyssen and his brother, Heinrich Thyssen-Bornemisza, the report said.

The 4,000 Union Banking shares owned by the Dutch bank were registered in the names of the seven U.S. directors, according a document signed by Homer Jones, chief of the division of investigation and research of the Office of Alien Property Custodian, a World War II-era agency that no longer exists.

E. Roland Harriman, the bank chairman and brother of former New York Gov. W. Averell Harriman (search), held 3,991 shares. Bush had one share.

Both Harrimans and Bush were partners in the New York investment firm of Brown Brothers, Harriman and Co., which handled the financial transactions of the bank as well as other financial dealings with several other companies linked to Bank voor Handel that were confiscated by the U.S. government during World War II.

Union Banking was seized by the government in October 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act (search).

No charges were brought against Union Banking's American directors. The federal government was too busy trying to fight the war, said Donald Goldstein, a professor of public and international affairs at the University of Pittsburgh.

"We did not have the resources to do these things," Goldstein said.

Fritz Thyssen broke with the Nazis in 1938 over their persecution of Catholics and Jews, and fled to Switzerland. He later was arrested and spent 1941 to 1945 in a Nazi prison. His brother lived in Switzerland from 1932 to 1947 but continued to operate businesses in Germany.

The new documents were first reported by freelance writer John Buchanan in The New Hampshire Gazette.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,100474,00.html