Nathan Beford Forrest High: Time For a Name Change

[Noone]

Image problem?

So this community is successful in a name change and then subsequently passes 2013-384 an active piece of legislation sponsored by councilwoman Daniels that will give the National Guard Armory at 851 North Market St. to the Sons of the Confederacy for a buck a year for 10 years.

VISIT JACKSONVILLE!

[fsquid]

Isn't our "image problem" one of the things that resulted in Wells Fargo moving their Florida headquarters to Miami a few years back?  How many high paying jobs were involved with that decision?  That alone should be significantly more economically than the cost stemming from the name change of a single school.

I don't know about Wells Fargo, the reason HSBC left was because the 200+ they employed in Jax didn't want to work, they wanted a paycheck. The workers in Jax are good for call centers, back office support, none of this will change with a name change, actually that wouldn't even put the community on the road to change. I would be interested to know how many of those signatures are alumni, because even though I feel the name should be changed, it should really be decided by the community that sends their kids there.

Agreed

[thelakelander]

Sounds like straw man arguments though. Everybody already acknowledges that we have a heap of things to do to turn this place around for the better. For the life of me, I really don't see why some are so adamant about preserving a wrong that's been residing since 1959. However, I feel the same way when it comes to stuff like the human rights ordinance, billboard, mobility fee moratorium, Mellow Mushroom, IAW, funding DT, fixing Hemming, investing in QOL, etc. debates.

Quite frankly, we'll never advance to resolving the major issues because we fight addressing the trivial ones. To most outside of or region, all this stuff does is solidify our backwardness in the minds of those involved in the businesses and things we say we want to attract.

[Tacachale]

Looks like I accidentally deleted my previous post, which is a shame for you all, because it was sure to have been as intelligent and thought-provoking as my posts always are.

This gist of it was, I don't think it's wise to try and this to some overall "image" problem we ostensibly have, or to specific events that may or may not have been tied to image, like the Wells move. That just invites responses like "no, [x company] moved because of [other reason y]"; "yeah, well [other positive thing x] happened, so obviously this isn't important and we shouldn't mess with the status quo", and "we have [worse problem z], and we can't possibly do two things at once so we shouldn't even address this until we've solved all social ills." It plays into the hands of those who want to maintain the status quo.

The name change needs be debated on its own merits if we're going to get anywhere. What do we lose and what do we gain by making the change? We lose some money, but we don't lose "history", as this name demonstrably isn't historical. We do get to stop sending our students to a school named after a highly controversial figure. We don't get a bunch of negative press in the media periodically that puts the city in a bad light. We end this debate once and for all. Changing it doesn't mean we've solved all the world's problems, it means we've solved one problem, and moved on to another.

[JayBird]

Actually I have heard people whom adamantly want it changed, think it should be changed, or don't really care which way it goes. I have yet to hear, on this board or anywhere, someone adamantly opposed to changing name. I'm sure they exist, guess they're not loud enough.

And in my personal opinion Jacksonville is "backwards" because to outsiders this is such a nonissue. It isn't like anyone is saying "lets fix global hunger first" as someone posted earlier, it's that in othe places this would be brought to those who make decision, a decision would be made, and it would be done. Look how many posts this thread recieved versus some truly serious, changing Jacksonville discussions. Surprisingly to those who grew up here or have been here for decades, the rest of the country doesn't care. They hear about it and they're just against racism. By if you asked someone on the street in San Francisco what they knew about Jacksonville, Florida I highly doubt the answer would be "isn't that the city that has a school named after the KKK guy?" Actually, whenever I meet someone who has never been here, if they know any thing it is a positive thing, so claiming "image" really doesn't affect this matter. "Self Image" would apply.

[Tacachale]

^And again, you're making this issue something more than it is. Not everyone in San Francisco or wherever has to know about this for it to be worth doing (or not worth doing). To that point, any negative press the city gets over this - regionally, nationally, etc. -  is negative press we wouldn't have gotten if the school had another name.

[JayBird]

I'm making the same point as others, and like everything else in Jacksonville, the natives debate to debate instead of debating to find a solution.

[I-10east]

Since the petitioner is from NY, maybe we can keep a lil' old with the namesake, and add a dash of Northern progressivism; None other than 'Bedford Stuyvesant South High'. The mascot would be the Fire Hydrants. Voila, I'm a miracle worker.

[Cheshire Cat]

Sounds like straw man arguments though. Everybody already acknowledges that we have a heap of things to do to turn this place around for the better. For the life of me, I really don't see why some are so adamant about preserving a wrong that's been residing since 1959. However, I feel the same way when it comes to stuff like the human rights ordinance, billboard, mobility fee moratorium, Mellow Mushroom, IAW, funding DT, fixing Hemming, investing in QOL, etc. debates.

Quite frankly, we'll never advance to resolving the major issues because we fight addressing the trivial ones. To most outside of or region, all this stuff does is solidify our backwardness in the minds of those involved in the businesses and things we say we want to attract.

My thoughts exactly!

[JayBird]

Since the petitioner is from NY, maybe we can keep a lil' old with the namesake, and add a dash of Northern progressivism; None other than 'Bedford Stuyvesant South High'. The mascot would be the Fire Hydrants. Voila, I'm a miracle worker.

LMAO +1000

[thelakelander]

I'm making the same point as others, and like everything else in Jacksonville, the natives debate to debate instead of debating to find a solution.

The solution to the Forrest situation is easy. Change the name. There are a variety of solutions to other issues as well. I don't believe any of this stuff is rocket science, assuming our overall goal is to become an economically viable 21st century city. However, if we don't want better than what we already are, we're doing a great job at accomplishing the task.

[If_I_Loved_you]

I'm making the same point as others, and like everything else in Jacksonville, the natives debate to debate instead of debating to find a solution.

The solution to the Forrest situation is easy. Change the name. There are a variety of solutions to other issues as well. I don't believe any of this stuff is rocket science, assuming our overall goal is to become an economically viable 21st century city. However, if we don't want better than what we already are, we're doing a great job at accomplishing the task.

I was reading my copy of the Resident Sept 2013 Volume 7 issue 9.                                                      Alumni hot about name change petition
Added by Editor on September 3, 2013.

Who is Brandon Kirsch and why is he stirring things up?

Alumni at the first ever 65th anniversary class reunion of Robert E. Lee High School certainly had a lot to talk about last month. The Class of 1948 most likely did much more than simply catch up with their classmates' lives; they also probably vented about the online petition currently circulating for a name change to the high school.

Just when you think the War Between the States has been firmly put to bed in the history books, someone fires another shot across the bow.

On Aug. 1 the Times-Union printed a letter from reader Brandon Kirsch of Neptune Beach, who has created a petition to change the name of Robert E. Lee High School, claiming "There are so many inspirational Americans to name a high school after. Why a slave-owning Confederate general deserves such an honor is beyond my
comprehension." Lee alumni were quick to fire back.

John Pringle, Class of 1950, sent an email to classmates about the petition and also made his opinion known with the Times-Union. "Since the attendance at Lee is now predominantly black, it is felt that the name of a slave-owning Confederate general is not an appropriate name. Would you like to see your high school named Dr. Martin Luther King High School or The Rev. Jesse Jackson High School? I for one bitterly oppose such a name change and I am sure many of you do also," read his email.

Reader responses on Jacksonville.com were varied, as were comments posted to the petition site, where 14 have petitioned for the name change and five are against the petition.

Noted one comment on the petition website, "Robert E. Lee, without exception, was the finest general in the Civil War. If he had stayed with the North and took command of the Army of the Potomac, as was offered, the war would have ended quickly. But he was a man of honor and went back to his home state to serve the South. No, don't change the name of Robert E. Lee High School. I suspect if you dug back into the background and history of everyone a school was named after you might have to change 90% of the names. Leave well enough alone. Go find something else to complain about, something with substance, something meaningful."

Lee High School alumni, for the most part, are against the idea of a name change. Wrote Terry Weitzel, "You might mention that George Washington was also a slave-owner. Should we rename Washington, DC and Washington state, and what should we do about the Washington Monument? How about Andrew Jackson? Native Americans should remember that he ordered the removal of the Cherokee from their homeland, resulting in many deaths along the Trail of Tears. Let's rename Jacksonville!"

Some opposing opinions are even stronger. "I would rather see the school torn down than give in to changing the name," said Al Marshall, Jr. in an email.

Though not an alumnus, Ray King, had a different opinion: "Only the location and name are the same. The campus is different, the school interior is different. The culture and the student population are definitely different than from a generation ago. The only thing left other than the location is the original name which represents a culture different from what is there now. The alumni know who they are and when they were there. They do not send their children there now so a name change should have no bearing on their reunions. There is no significant connection between the older alumni and the students now other than the school name. Robert E. Lee High School will always be theirs in tradition, fond in memory. It is, in reality gone. A name change might be a relief. I am a Bolles graduate of 1952, otherwise I would have attended R. E. Lee and am considered by some to be an alumnus because of a book I wrote about us way back then. The campus there at Bolles is also quite different than two generations ago, but the culture there, though now no longer military, and now co-educational and mixed racially is essentially the same. Alumni still send their children there [to Bolles]. They don't to Lee. They can't. Just let it go."

Another alumnus posted an opposing viewpoint on the petition website. "It is fitting that the current students at Lee High School select an appropriate name for the school in light of the injustices imposed on their forebears," stated Jackson Harper, Class of 1950.

So, just who is Brandon Kirsch, beyond someone with a strong opinion about Robert E. Lee? The Resident attempted to contact Kirsch to find out more about the man and his petition, but his phone number is disconnected or no longer in service. According to another news outlet, Kirsch, a Canadian, is a dermatology resident at Mayo Clinic Florida.
By Kate A. Hallock
Resident Community News  http://residentnews.net/2013/09/03/alumni-hot-change-petition/


IMO changing names of High schools is just plain stupid! We can't change the past we can only really look towards the future. 

[JayBird]

I'm making the same point as others, and like everything else in Jacksonville, the natives debate to debate instead of debating to find a solution.

The solution to the Forrest situation is easy. Change the name. There are a variety of solutions to other issues as well. I don't believe any of this stuff is rocket science, assuming our overall goal is to become an economically viable 21st century city. However, if we don't want better than what we already are, we're doing a great job at accomplishing the task.

+100

[JayBird]

An oldie that made the rounds a few years ago, but obviously still true today

Racism, just because it is subtle doesn't mean it isn't there.

[If_I_Loved_you]

I'm making the same point as others, and like everything else in Jacksonville, the natives debate to debate instead of debating to find a solution.

The solution to the Forrest situation is easy. Change the name. There are a variety of solutions to other issues as well. I don't believe any of this stuff is rocket science, assuming our overall goal is to become an economically viable 21st century city. However, if we don't want better than what we already are, we're doing a great job at accomplishing the task.

+100

-099