Khan interested in developing shipyards

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

And the only people who are going to pay a 5-cap (aka they are leveraged at a swapped or floating spread 200-250 BPs ahead of 10 YR Treasuries, which are on the way up squeezing the so-called yield spread quite thin on present day pricing), are REITs and institutional funds, and they just don't look at Jacksonville.

Followed by:

edit: found out they paid $3.7M for land and MAA the backer (REIT with low cost of capital) expects to end up paying around $39.5M, which changes my little math a bit.  MAA is merging with Colonial, another REIT, and Jax is now a top 10 Sunbelt metro focus for MAA.

I know you like 'geeking out' on certain things and crunching a lot of misc. numbers, but I think it would be better for all of us if you could just get your facts straight.  Hmmmm?

[fieldafm]

Toney Sleiman does not need to own the land under the Landing to develop it.  Personally, I don't think he should, and just from my experience working on similar projects and knowing of similar projects the ground lease should not be an obstacle.  The market is.  Toney's inexperience at this kind of deal could be (a proposal of his size should definitely have an experienced partner, or two).  Nothing is going to happen there and you can blame who you want, but a creative, willing, experienced developer and a market would get something done there.

You're letting personal opinion on someone dictate your view on a developer's financial capabilities without having personal knowledge of their situation.  I can tell you that you are completely misinformed.

Along with Cambridge it's the hottest office market in the city right now, especially for large biotech campuses, and then there is also a good bit of creative office space, which we invested in. 

I think you are confusing South Boston's Innovation District in totality with how the waterfront was formed.   The city of boston did make that entire area a specific enterprise zone focusing on technology companies (which is a different discussion, and certainly worthy of exploration in it's own right). 

I'm referring to the plans that started about 17 years ago... the 'riverwalk' and related public spaces were in fact completed and the adjacents parcels filled in (and are still filling in today) around them incrementally.  The City only wanting to deal with a big mega-project ignores the Jax Shipyard site's history and market conditions.  It is far easier to follow the Columbus Commons model, carving out the public access in a way that preserves river access and selling off parcels individually instead of just as one large property.

The very first tenant in the 'new' South Boston waterfront wasn't a pharmaceutical company... it was Shipyards Brewery.

Sound familiar?




The City didnt want to play ball and 'break up the property'.  I learned three important things from baseball 1) don't scratch your crotch while people are watching  2) how many sticks of gum I can fit in my mouth, which helped me realize how big of a capacity my mouth had for when I later stuck my foot in it (and still do) and lastly 3) you get three strikes and your out.  The City already has three strikes on the Shipyards with mega-developments, its time for a new strategy and batter.

I have been to Milwaukee's 3rd Ward a few times as I have a good friend in the city (plus Summerfest is right nearby  ) - this area is really cool, but it is a bit of an irony.  It has become sort of the city's most exclusive area and most of those buildings are filled with million dollar condos.

Again, I believe you are confusing a discussion about urban form with rents.  Look at the market-driven development pattern at Third Ward (the city again revamped public access along the riverfront).  It wasn't one big mega-site, it was a series of smaller developments.  That's the key point in this discussion.

We already have an Inner Harbor.. that's the Jax Landing.  Work with what you already have and focus on a more realistic way to deal with the Shipyards in which you can control the development pattern and not rely on once again subsidizing a risky mega-development.  We're still stuck with that bill today as there is substantial bond debt outstanding on the Shipyards.  Khan's proposal relies on some pretty hefty city-assistance from what I understand of what is being asked for.

[Cheshire Cat]

Has anyone been to Chelsea Piers on the west side of Manhattan? I think this would be perfect for the shipyards. It is described as:
"The Chelsea Piers Sports & Entertainment Complex is a 28-acre waterfront sports village located between 17th and 23rd Streets along Manhattan's Hudson River. This $120 million, privately-financed project opened in 1995, transforming four historic, but long-neglected, piers into a major center for public recreation and waterfront access. "

They have a driving range, fitness center, AstroTurf fields, bowling, ice rink, restaurants, etc.

http://www.chelseapiers.com/

Welcome to the forum!

[kbhanson3]

More public space along the river would be great, but the Shipyards is not the right spot since it is surrounded by the Berkman, the jail, Maxwell House, Hart bridge access ramp and Metropolitan Park. Better to locate new public spaces downtown in locations that will drive redevelopment or new development of adjacent properties.

[Cheshire Cat]

Welcome kbhanson3.  Love the interest from new posters.  Everyone's ideas and input is what seeds creative change. 

[Stephen]

Chelsea Piers is great. I have a cousin who lives in NYC and she lives very close to Chelsea Piers. The great thing with all of this is I think Mr.Khan has the imagination to make up for the lack of imagination in this city.

[jaxequality]

Khan needs to piss or get off the pot. He is starting to remind me of Alvin Brown.

[Cheshire Cat]

Khan needs to piss or get off the pot. He is starting to remind me of Alvin Brown.

Khan doesn't have to do anything actually.  He made some comments about being interested in the Shipyards property and that he had ideas.  He made no further declaration and the media ran with his comments.  That does not put him in the position of being responsible to come up with the dollars and plans to do so to suit the public.  lol  He like anyone else can "dream" out loud.  It is purely his choice to act on that dream or not.

The ones responsible for the Shipyards property are currently holding office in City Hall.  They are the ones sitting on the "throne" right now.  If someone needs to take some sort of action or depart the "throne" I think they may be the ones to talk to. 

[jaxequality]

I'm just sick of the KHAN hype. Run for Mayor for all I care, but can we start moving forward already?

[Stephen]

Thats the problem..Jacksonville does not move forward..It either stays as it is or moves backwards..

[Cheshire Cat]

I'm just sick of the KHAN hype. Run for Mayor for all I care, but can we start moving forward already?

Maybe what is underneath that feeling is the attitude that many seem to hold is that there is some person that will be a savior for downtown and Jacksonville.  Khan is the latest person upon whom people have focused that "fantasy".  The reality is that there is no one person that will save our downtown or grow Jacksonville for that matter.  It will be and has always been a collective effort.  The beginnings of that effort has always been with the people themselves.  Understanding that reality is what will bring us closer to understanding and doing something about who "we the people" entrust in positions of leadership.  It's politics and who the politicians are beholding to and that is almost always not the general public who elected them. 

[vicupstate]

The City already has three strikes on the Shipyards with mega-developments, its time for a new strategy and batter.

I know about the Spence/Tri-Legacy strike and the Landmar strike, what was the three one?

[jaxequality]

I'm just sick of the KHAN hype. Run for Mayor for all I care, but can we start moving forward already?

Maybe what is underneath that feeling is the attitude that many seem to hold is that there is some person that will be a savior for downtown and Jacksonville.  Khan is the latest person upon whom people have focused that "fantasy".  The reality is that there is no one person that will save our downtown or grow Jacksonville for that matter.  It will be and has always been a collective effort.  The beginnings of that effort has always been with the people themselves.  Understanding that reality is what will bring us closer to understanding and doing something about who "we the people" entrust in positions of leadership.  It's politics and who the politicians are beholding to and that is almost always not the general public who elected them.

Agreed. The current city leaders are weak.  It doesn't seem to matter what the "people" seem to want around here. I just had high hopes for Khan, and I think he is in it to win it. I'd just like to start seeing some movement. Jacksonville has HUGE potential and they all know it but like kings they wait and are keeping us on the edge of our seats.

[thelakelander]

I totally agree that revamping the Landing area makes more sense, and should come first.  But the Inner Harbor is pretty big and if overlaided onto the Northbank, would cover the Landing footprint and the Shipyards as well.   Like Baltimore, it would happen in phases as demand warranted.

I overlayed the two in a 2009 article about the Inner Harbor.  We're more spread out than most can imagine. Think of everything the Inner Harbor has and imagine squeezing it in between the Acosta Bridge and the Hyatt Hotel.





Images of Inner Harbor: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jul-elements-of-urbanism-baltimore

[kbhanson3]

The very first tenant in the 'new' South Boston waterfront wasn't a pharmaceutical company... it was Shipyards Brewery. Sound familiar?

The City dropped the ball on the Intuition Ale opportunity. Everyone can argue until they're blue in the face about whether it was the "right" location and whether the City would have gotten market value for the land, but the fact is that downtown needs momentum and it needs destination retail/restaurant/entertainment. In my experience, the early deals in a large scale project are the hardest to swallow because it often feels like you're giving it away even though you know you're sowing seeds for bigger deals down the road, and those are the deals that make or break the project.