Khan interested in developing shipyards

[Cheshire Cat]

I'm just sick of the KHAN hype. Run for Mayor for all I care, but can we start moving forward already?

Maybe what is underneath that feeling is the attitude that many seem to hold is that there is some person that will be a savior for downtown and Jacksonville.  Khan is the latest person upon whom people have focused that "fantasy".  The reality is that there is no one person that will save our downtown or grow Jacksonville for that matter.  It will be and has always been a collective effort.  The beginnings of that effort has always been with the people themselves.  Understanding that reality is what will bring us closer to understanding and doing something about who "we the people" entrust in positions of leadership.  It's politics and who the politicians are beholding to and that is almost always not the general public who elected them.

Agreed. The current city leaders are weak.  It doesn't seem to matter what the "people" seem to want around here. I just had high hopes for Khan, and I think he is in it to win it. I'd just like to start seeing some movement. Jacksonville has HUGE potential and they all know it but like kings they wait and are keeping us on the edge of our seats.

I believe Khan is doing a lot of moving that folks cannot see and his plans may be bigger than we would imagine.  First he has to build a winning team and to do so takes time (he gets that).  He also understands that more focus on Jacksonville will help him grow interest in his investment (the team) which is why he even set up some games in England and also why he is now into soccer.  He also invested in the One Spark festival which put focus on downtown.  He is doing all he needs to do to grow his business interests and Jacksonville is along for the ride.  He has no responsibility to the community beyond what he decides to take in order to secure his personal business plans.  It sounds to me like he has a great deal of interest in seeing Jacksonville become all that it could be but as a smart business person he will weigh his options and move when the time is right.  That time may not be in accordance with what others would have them do, but it's his money and his call.   The ones responsible to the citizens and our future is the elected officials.  We need to put the right ones in office and then hold them responsible, starting "yesterday". 

[Cheshire Cat]

I totally agree that revamping the Landing area makes more sense, and should come first.  But the Inner Harbor is pretty big and if overlaided onto the Northbank, would cover the Landing footprint and the Shipyards as well.   Like Baltimore, it would happen in phases as demand warranted.

I overlayed the two in a 2009 article about the Inner Harbor.  We're more spread out than most can imagine. Think of everything the Inner Harbor has and imagine squeezing it in between the Acosta Bridge and the Hyatt Hotel.





Images of Inner Harbor: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jul-elements-of-urbanism-baltimore

Thanks for the overlay's Ennis.  This certainly helps to put the project into a better perspective.

[MEGATRON]

Agreed. The current city leaders are weak.  It doesn't seem to matter what the "people" seem to want around here. I just had high hopes for Khan, and I think he is in it to win it. I'd just like to start seeing some movement. Jacksonville has HUGE potential and they all know it but like kings they wait and are keeping us on the edge of our seats.

Geez, he's been here for, what, two years.  Dude did not get wealthy throwing money around randomly.  Besides, who says things aren't moving?

[PeeJayEss]

Khan needs to piss or get off the pot. He is starting to remind me of Alvin Brown.

I'm pretty sure Mr. Khan does this activity standing up. Though Lord knows he can afford to sit down for it, he seems like the type of go-getter that would do his business and be on his way. Misusing colloquialisms aside, he's not been here very long and has completely shaken up the Jaguars organization, proposed a facelift for the stadium, bought an EPL team, arranged for the Jags to play in England and Fulham to play in Jacksonville, financed a purchase of the most important piece of DT Jax real estate for revitalization, and prodded the City on doing something with an integral piece of DT landscape that has long been an eyesore, all while maintaining one of the best mustaches this side of Magnum PI. I'm sure he regrets that he hasn't been able to build whatever hair-brained, money-losing, pie-in-the-sky idea you have for the Shipyards, but I guess he's just been busy playing the grand piano on his OCEAN LINER!

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

...but I guess he's just been busy playing the grand piano on his OCEAN LINER!

What a fantastic movie!  (skip to 1:15 for the action)

http://www.youtube.com/v/0lBnr9RyISU

[thelakelander]

I totally agree that revamping the Landing area makes more sense, and should come first.  But the Inner Harbor is pretty big and if overlaided onto the Northbank, would cover the Landing footprint and the Shipyards as well.   Like Baltimore, it would happen in phases as demand warranted.

I overlayed the two in a 2009 article about the Inner Harbor.  We're more spread out than most can imagine. Think of everything the Inner Harbor has and imagine squeezing it in between the Acosta Bridge and the Hyatt Hotel.





Images of Inner Harbor: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jul-elements-of-urbanism-baltimore

Thanks for the overlay's Ennis.  This certainly helps to put the project into a better perspective.

Now you can see why I don't get as excited about the Shipyards as most do, or believe that it has the ability to significantly  transform downtown.  It's nearly a mile away from the core of the Northbank.  In most cities, it would be in a completely different neighborhood.

[Cheshire Cat]

Ennis.  Is that mile distance one you are measuring if the Main Street bridge were used?  How far is the property from the stadium?

[vicupstate]

I totally agree that revamping the Landing area makes more sense, and should come first.  But the Inner Harbor is pretty big and if overlaided onto the Northbank, would cover the Landing footprint and the Shipyards as well.   Like Baltimore, it would happen in phases as demand warranted.

I overlayed the two in a 2009 article about the Inner Harbor.  We're more spread out than most can imagine. Think of everything the Inner Harbor has and imagine squeezing it in between the Acosta Bridge and the Hyatt Hotel.





Images of Inner Harbor: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jul-elements-of-urbanism-baltimore

Thanks for the overlay's Ennis.  This certainly helps to put the project into a better perspective.

Now you can see why I don't get as excited about the Shipyards as most do, or believe that it has the ability to significantly  transform downtown.  It's nearly a mile away from the core of the Northbank.  In most cities, it would be in a completely different neighborhood.

To me the overlay shows the potential of the Shipyards.  Much of the I.H. overlay is over the river, and a good it of it is the CSX building, which obviously isn't going anywhere.  Take that combined area and stretch it eastward and you cover all or most of the Shipyards parcel.  In other words, make the Landing the western-most 'anchor' of the Jax version of the Inner Harbor ,and move eastward from  there.

[tufsu1]

Ennis.  Is that mile distance one you are measuring if the Main Street bridge were used?  How far is the property from the stadium?

it is between 1.25 and 1.5 miles from the Main St Bridge to the stadium...the closest part of the Shipyards to the core is over 1/2 mile from the bridge and extends to within about a 1/2 mile of the stadium

[thelakelander]

Anything but compact.  It will take decades of infill to make such a distance remotely vibrant......

That's when we get to the point that infill becomes viable market rate.

[vicupstate]

What is the distance from the Hyatt to the CSX building?  Pedestrians walk that trek and more all the time now, even with nothing really there except the Landing, which is old and tired and partially vacant.   

While attending a convention in Baltimore, my party walked from our hotel just west of the overlay shown, all the way to almost Little Italy.  Strolled, had dinner, strolled ,had dessert, strolled back. 

Certainly it would take decades to complete, but first complete the Riverwalk to Metro Park, and then start with the City Hall Annex and/or the courthouse site, and then progress in an eastern direction from there.

I visited the  Inner Harbor in the 90's and it wasn't even half the area shown in the overlay then.  I saw it in the mid 2000's and it covered the entire overlay you see in this thread.

[thelakelander]

It's 0.62 miles from the Acosta Bridge to the Hyatt.  It's a half mile from Haborplace to Little Italy.

The crazy thing is we've invested in nearly the same stuff as Baltimore did over a similar 30 year period.  Their investments were purposely clustered together and our investments appear as if someone kicked an ant hill.  Their compact placement of complementing attractions created synergy which attracted additional development.  Looking at us, we could set off a similar chain reaction by taking a small piece of the urban waterfront, improving existing amenities and infilling it with additional amenities.  However, that option would be better served focusing between CSX and the Hyatt area as a higher priority.

[ChriswUfGator]

It's 0.62 miles from the Acosta Bridge to the Hyatt.  It's a half mile from Haborplace to Little Italy.

The crazy thing is we've invested in nearly the same stuff as Baltimore did over a similar 30 year period.  Their investments were purposely clustered together and our investments appear as if someone kicked an ant hill.  Their compact placement of complementing attractions created synergy which attracted additional development.  Looking at us, we could set off a similar chain reaction by taking a small piece of the urban waterfront, improving existing amenities and infilling it with additional amenities.  However, that option would be better served focusing between CSX and the Hyatt area as a higher priority.

That's analyzing it in a vacuum though. Baltimore didn't run around demolishing the rest of their city while working on the harbor, lol. It doesn't really matter what gimmick we built here, there just aren't any significant number of people to speak of downtown, where we've demolished the reasons they'd be there in the first place, and then we ran off the few remaining large employers with asinine parking policies. Except for EverBank, who got so many concessions it got to where it would almost have cost them money not to move. Which apparently is what it takes to get a tenant downtown these days.

The land area down there doesn't matter as much as the fact that there's just nothing there, and by demolishing 2/3's of it, they've made it economically unfeasible for small businesses to locate there. You have to build a new building now, you can't just rent. Even if you do build a new building, that's expensive, and accordingly so will be the rent. It basically already reached critical mass and imploded back in the 1990s. Absent drastic policy changes and public investment it's not changing anytime soon, the shipyards aren't really going to affect it one way or the other.

[vicupstate]

It's 0.62 miles from the Acosta Bridge to the Hyatt.  It's a half mile from Haborplace to Little Italy.

The crazy thing is we've invested in nearly the same stuff as Baltimore did over a similar 30 year period.  Their investments were purposely clustered together and our investments appear as if someone kicked an ant hill.  Their compact placement of complementing attractions created synergy which attracted additional development.  Looking at us, we could set off a similar chain reaction by taking a small piece of the urban waterfront, improving existing amenities and infilling it with additional amenities.  However, that option would be better served focusing between CSX and the Hyatt area as a higher priority.

That's analyzing it in a vacuum though. Baltimore didn't run around demolishing the rest of their city while working on the harbor, lol. It doesn't really matter what gimmick we built here, there just aren't any significant number of people to speak of downtown, where we've demolished the reasons they'd be there in the first place, and then we ran off the few remaining large employers with asinine parking policies. Except for EverBank, who got so many concessions it got to where it would almost have cost them money not to move. Which apparently is what it takes to get a tenant downtown these days.

The land area down there doesn't matter as much as the fact that there's just nothing there, and by demolishing 2/3's of it, they've made it economically unfeasible for small businesses to locate there. You have to build a new building now, you can't just rent. Even if you do build a new building, that's expensive, and accordingly so will be the rent. It basically already reached critical mass and imploded back in the 1990s. Absent drastic policy changes and public investment it's not changing anytime soon, the shipyards aren't really going to affect it one way or the other.

I can't disagree with a word you have written.  That is a good description of why the land is, and probably will be vacant for some time.  On the other hand, Charlotte leveled just about everything in it's DT core too, yet it has made a comeback, even wiithout waterfront property.  All Jax needs is a couple of big banks with deep pockets and a light rail line.

[thelakelander]

It's 0.62 miles from the Acosta Bridge to the Hyatt.  It's a half mile from Haborplace to Little Italy.

The crazy thing is we've invested in nearly the same stuff as Baltimore did over a similar 30 year period.  Their investments were purposely clustered together and our investments appear as if someone kicked an ant hill.  Their compact placement of complementing attractions created synergy which attracted additional development.  Looking at us, we could set off a similar chain reaction by taking a small piece of the urban waterfront, improving existing amenities and infilling it with additional amenities.  However, that option would be better served focusing between CSX and the Hyatt area as a higher priority.

That's analyzing it in a vacuum though. Baltimore didn't run around demolishing the rest of their city while working on the harbor, lol.

It doesn't really matter what gimmick we built here, there just aren't any significant number of people to speak of downtown, where we've demolished the reasons they'd be there in the first place, and then we ran off the few remaining large employers with asinine parking policies. Except for EverBank, who got so many concessions it got to where it would almost have cost them money not to move. Which apparently is what it takes to get a tenant downtown these days.

The land area down there doesn't matter as much as the fact that there's just nothing there, and by demolishing 2/3's of it, they've made it economically unfeasible for small businesses to locate there. You have to build a new building now, you can't just rent. Even if you do build a new building, that's expensive, and accordingly so will be the rent. It basically already reached critical mass and imploded back in the 1990s. Absent drastic policy changes and public investment it's not changing anytime soon, the shipyards aren't really going to affect it one way or the other.

You're kind of doing what you're accusing me of.  You're obviously assuming Baltimore didn't run around demolishing areas of town while working on the harbor.  In actuality, there are some areas in close proximity of the harbor and harbor itself that were subject to lots of urban renewal.  Jax isn't close to being alone when it comes to late 20th century demolition, although many of us believe we are.

Looking at the early 20th century Baltimore shots, nearly every building surrounding the Inner Harbor no longer exists today.  The Inner Harbor succeeds, not because of the rest of the city's density, but the synergy of compact, complementing uses fueling an environment that attracts a ton of outsiders to spend money there.  Next time, you're in Baltimore, try walking a few blocks NW of the Inner Harbor and into the heart of downtown or NE near Johns Hopkins or where Jonestown used to be.  It's a completely different environment.



However, you're basically describing why the Shipyards should be less of a focus.  There's one area of downtown where building density has actually increased in the last few decades and that's the Northbank waterfront between the Acosta and Hyatt.  It's were most people who visit downtown go now. If we have any hope in adding life back within a compact area (in the short term), it's that spot because you're not starting from scratch.  There are excellent opportunities with the linear green space between CSX and the Landing, the Landing, Omni, Performing Arts Center, Suntrust Tower and Wells Fargo Center.  You really don't need major infill in this area to enhance it.  It can easily be improved by enhancing connectivity and improving the public realm spaces between the existing attractions themselves.

Also, this isn't a gimmick as much as it's common sense and a proven method to increasing pedestrian scale walkability and interaction, which eventually equals vibrancy within a compact setting.