Consolidation Task Force

[CityLife]

Well that does it Tacachale. Guess we don't need a consolidation task force after all....

Care to back that up with even the slightest hint of a fact? This is precisely why it would be useful to do a review of consolidation and compare Jacksonville to places statewide and countrywide. Until then we are relying on conjecture.

[Tacachale]

^I thought it was pretty straight forward. Sprawl does increase the cost of a lot of services. However, it's not more expensive per capita for Jacksonville to maintain services than it is in similarly low-density Florida governments like Orlando/Orange County, Tampa/Hillsborough, Charlotte, Alachua, etc. Places like St. Johns and Clay Counties are almost all low-density residential development. However, none of those areas are currently having the same problems funding their services.

[CityLife]

Conjecture and an oversimplification of a complex matter.

Orlando is 110 square miles-Orange County 1,003 square miles
Tampa is 170 square miles-Hillsborough County 1,266 square miles
Jacksonville is 874 square miles-Duval County is 918 square miles

Orlando has 2,327 people per square mile and Orange County has 1,258 per square mile
Tampa has 2,969 people per square mile and Hillsborough has 1,170 per square mile
Jacksonville has 1,100 people per square mile and Duval County has 1,117 per square mile

Not exactly an apples to apples comparison....and I'd love to see some facts on Orlando and Tampa's financial situations, as well as of Orange and Hillsborough Counties.

As for the St. Johns and Clay arguments, know anything about their financial situations or the services they provide? St. Johns County funds quite a bit of infrastructure and services through impact fees on new development and also doesn't have nearly the burden of crime and social services that Jacksonville does. It is also one of the wealthiest counties in the state...I believe 3rd. So again, not exactly an apples to apples comparison. Funny enough I'm a former SJC employee and can tell you that they require about 2x the output than COJ does out of their employees and also are MUCH more effectively managed by Michael Wanchick than Mayor Brown does COJ.

I don't think the consolidation task force should have the aim to deconsolidate...but I think that it would be a great opportunity to find out what works and what doesn't and then tweak the system.

[Tacachale]

^I would agree with that. The point of my comparison was that across most Florida metros other than Miami, the population density is comparable. In the bigger cities, the size of the area served, whether services are split between the county and cities or Jax's consolidated government, is also similar. So while sprawl effects the costs of services, the effect is similar in those areas. However, Jacksonville is the one that's having trouble keeping our libraries open and our grass mowed.

[icarus]

CityLife makes a valid point about the productivity of SJC employees versus Duval as I have witnessed the same and I will reiterate my point its about management in Duval.  I wish there was an objective to measure how much money was spent on administration, i.e. employees, supervisors, etc., versus services.

I think the Mayor should take a hint from Vitti at the School Board and look for bloat within the administration of City Departments.

Deconsolidation would simply create additional government bureaucracy and cost.  The better focus is how we are utilizing the resources that we do have.

And, don't get me started on our failure to follow-through on mobility fees as a source to fund services to the sprawl.

[CityLife]

^I would agree with that. The point of my comparison was that across most Florida metros other than Miami, the population density is comparable. In the bigger cities, the size of the area served, whether services are split between the county and cities or Jax's consolidated government, is also similar. So while sprawl effects the costs of services, the effect is similar in those areas. However, Jacksonville is the one that's having trouble keeping our libraries open and our grass mowed.

But again that is a major oversimplification. What is the millage rate in Orlando/Tampa? What are the assessed property values in Orlando/Tampa? How much extra do they generate in tourism revenue? How much more money do USF/UCF stimulate into their local economies vs. UNF? How much do they spend on libraries, police, schools, maintenance, etc? How are their governments staffed? What is their pension situation? And so on and so on.

This isn't just a quick matter to discuss on a message board, but a subject that needs to be looked at from every angle and then researched heavily.

[CityLife]

CityLife makes a valid point about the productivity of SJC employees versus Duval as I have witnessed the same and I will reiterate my point its about management in Duval.  I wish there was an objective to measure how much money was spent on administration, i.e. employees, supervisors, etc., versus services.

I would be willing to bet that Jacksonville gets FAR less bang for its buck than a lot of places, but of course only a comprehensive study could determine that....

As for the SJC thing, its a fairly widely held opinion for anyone that deals with COJ and SJC. If I had a dollar for every developer, architect, engineer, contractor, etc that told me that, I'd be retired.

[CityLife]

I'd love to compare how many attorney's we have on staff to other places. SJC has 5...Duval by my count 31! 17 of which are making >$100,000 a year.

http://www.coj.net/ogc/attorneys.aspx

[CityLife]

Spoken with two different people today about the Task Force. One tells me that he believes/hopes one thing that will looked at is all the agencies like JEA, JTA, JaxPort, etc, especially how out of control the salaries are. The other tells me to expect it to be filled with big hitters, which of course isn't surprising.

[CityLife]

Taca, looks like Clay does have issues providing basic services as well.

http://jacksonville.com/community/clay/2013-07-14/story/clay-public-ballparks-deteroriating-county-cites-economy-budget

Clay County public ballparks are deteriorating for want of maintenance and repairs.

County officials blame budget and manpower constraints for the decaying conditions. Close parks or put off non-safety-related repairs and maintenance is the hard choice the county's faced since the 2007-08 fiscal year, County Manager Stephanie Kopelousos said. This year, the department's budget totals nearly $1.6 million.

[ChriswUfGator]

^It's Both. Jacksonville isn't any more sprawled out than other Florida metros that don't have the same problems funding their services we currently do (in fact, our own suburban counties don't seem to have that problem).

Jacksonville is way more sprawled than the other Florida metros, that one's not really arguable...

[Dog Walker]

CityLife makes a valid point about the productivity of SJC employees versus Duval as I have witnessed the same and I will reiterate my point its about management in Duval.  I wish there was an objective to measure how much money was spent on administration, i.e. employees, supervisors, etc., versus services.

I would be willing to bet that Jacksonville gets FAR less bang for its buck than a lot of places, but of course only a comprehensive study could determine that....

As for the SJC thing, its a fairly widely held opinion for anyone that deals with COJ and SJC. If I had a dollar for every developer, architect, engineer, contractor, etc that told me that, I'd be retired.

I'll second that opinion.  My best friend in the world recently retired from SJC as a department head.  He is an incredibly skilled administrator who got more work out of his employees than anyone could believe.  Even when someone came down with a medical disability, he would find something they could do until they could return to full duty instead of having them sit a home collecting a paycheck.  They recovered faster too.

He also said that the impact fees in SJC made it possible to maintain and expand the infrastructure.

His opinion of people in comparable positions to his in Duval County is not high and in some cases downright disdainful.  "Too much politics, not enough skills."

[Tacachale]

Taca, looks like Clay does have issues providing basic services as well.

http://jacksonville.com/community/clay/2013-07-14/story/clay-public-ballparks-deteroriating-county-cites-economy-budget

Clay County public ballparks are deteriorating for want of maintenance and repairs.

County officials blame budget and manpower constraints for the decaying conditions. Close parks or put off non-safety-related repairs and maintenance is the hard choice the county's faced since the 2007-08 fiscal year, County Manager Stephanie Kopelousos said. This year, the department's budget totals nearly $1.6 million.

I saw that. However, they're still not at the level of laying off dozens of cops, closing over a quarter of their libraries, or four fire stations.

^It's Both. Jacksonville isn't any more sprawled out than other Florida metros that don't have the same problems funding their services we currently do (in fact, our own suburban counties don't seem to have that problem).

Jacksonville is way more sprawled than the other Florida metros, that one's not really arguable...

Population density is lower but comparable in Duval vs. to Orlando and Tampa. It's more dense than the Lakeland, Ocala or Melbourne areas. It's obviously a lot less dense than the Miami area.

[Tacachale]

CityLife makes a valid point about the productivity of SJC employees versus Duval as I have witnessed the same and I will reiterate my point its about management in Duval.  I wish there was an objective to measure how much money was spent on administration, i.e. employees, supervisors, etc., versus services.

I would be willing to bet that Jacksonville gets FAR less bang for its buck than a lot of places, but of course only a comprehensive study could determine that....

As for the SJC thing, its a fairly widely held opinion for anyone that deals with COJ and SJC. If I had a dollar for every developer, architect, engineer, contractor, etc that told me that, I'd be retired.

I'll second that opinion.  My best friend in the world recently retired from SJC as a department head.  He is an incredibly skilled administrator who got more work out of his employees than anyone could believe.  Even when someone came down with a medical disability, he would find something they could do until they could return to full duty instead of having them sit a home collecting a paycheck.  They recovered faster too.

He also said that the impact fees in SJC made it possible to maintain and expand the infrastructure.

His opinion of people in comparable positions to his in Duval County is not high and in some cases downright disdainful.  "Too much politics, not enough skills."

Yeah, that sounds about right. The feeling I got from a lot of people was that the impact fees for new development made the comparatively lower tax rates for property owners possible. We'll see how long it holds out, though, as it won't be a hot spot for new development forever and they really don't have any economic drivers besides residential construction and some tourism.

[CityLife]

Taca, there is actually a surprising amount of industrial development in SJC too. You are right though in that relying on impact fees for infrastructure and services is not a sustainable form of government long term. However, by the time SJC has those issues, they will have already acquired a significant amount of the middle and upper income Jax Metro residents. When that happens, they can just raise the millage to capture whatever revenue they need.