Skyway + Brooklyn + Fire Station 5 = URBAN DYNAMO

[tufsu1]

Ocklawaha.........Can the skyway make a short radius 90 degree turn?

it pretty much already does...at Bay and Hogan

[Charles Hunter]

I hope Sunbeam forgives me for not typing in all caps.
No Transit System Makes a Profit.
The Skyway was never sold as a "profit-maker".
I guess the Mayor is right - the libraries, parks, pools, and fire stations don't make money - so shut 'em down.

[urbaknight]

If JTA would stop building so many roads, there'd be plenty of money for this project and many others.

[thelakelander]

There are many people out there who share Sunbeam's concerns. To me, it seems like most haven't had the opportunity to learn or understanding how projects such as this, or even various levels of public funding works. Thus, I'd treat Sunbeam's posts as an opportunity to discuss some of the comments raised.

I get tired of people like the writer of the article feeding us crap and telling us its ice cream and everything will be so rosy.
JTA cant even run a bus company at a profit but we are trying to be sold on the fact we need to give them more and more money..

You'll be hard pressed to find any public transportation entity turning a profit at the fare box. Those days died when we started heavily subsidizing individual auto travel.

so they can continue to screw the tax payer even more when it comes to failing deals like the Skyway of which is not even done being paid for. JTA sold the community on how much money it would make and it never has BUT now its free and no revenue is being collected AND just who do you think has to cover that loss of revenue? JTA? NOT!!! They continually run at a loss we the tax payers cover annually.

As Charles Hunter has already stated, the Skyway was never sold to anyone as a profit maker.  When you sit down and think about it, it's also hard to claim it has failed, considering we've never done the things envisioned at the time of its planning, that it was supposed to complement and support. Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure it's generated more ROI to the taxpayer than the public streets we stay and drive on, on a daily basis.

Also, some may not be aware, but the Skyway was a federal demonstration project that was funded by the feds.  Jacksonville didn't spend $184 million for its construction.  Several other cities competed for the demonstration project to be built in their communities, but Jacksonville, Miami, and Detroit ultimately ended up winning.

JTA is nothing but a self serving Authority that looks out for themselves and will go to any length to lie to try and justify their existence as a transportation company.

Their failed track record speaks for itself but the writer wants us ALL to bow down and allow them to screw us again.

JTA has a new CEO running the show now.  Give him a chance or better yet, work with him and the agency to make things better.

NO WAY! Not without a fight!

Nothing wrong with a good fight, regardless of what people's views may be on particular issues.  It's great for us to get actively involved in making our community a better place and working to not see public tax dollars wasted. I wish more residents would get off their couch and do the same. If so, Jax would end up being a much better place.

[thelakelander]

Interesting proposal.

The station would require acquisition of private property.  It appears the owner of the building that houses Johnny's, owns that backlot that supports the station proposal.

I don't agree with moving the fire station. I am for preservation, but the historical significance of that station is very, very small. I could think of some more significant lots in Springfield, or downtown that have more preservation value than the old fire station. I would let it fall.

I would build the station right over Forest Street and let the buses loop through the vacant lot on the corners. MJ posted a good article earlier about how good urban design takes advantage of its available space, like the Chicago CTA building stations above streets where possible.  Keep it simple.

I like the big vision of the plans proposed, it is definitely something more tangible than the self serving JTA transportation center by the PO. But if something like this is going to happen, it is going to require some solid strategy from our city fathers, some that is lacking sorely right now.

My ultimate concern would focus on ROI of public tax dollars and how does such a concept play into the larger overall regional multimodal transportation network.  For example, if the mobility plan was allowed to generate the funds necessary to construct a streetcar from downtown and deep into Riverside, is the duplication of urban circulator services even worth the extra cost?

While preservation of the station is a worthy concern, I'm not sure it should be used to drive or justify the need for a pretty expensive expansion that would only stretch a couple of blocks.  If the goal is to save the building, the numbers would work better simply buying the land and paying for the building to be moved across the street, as opposed to paying for a Skyway extension.  It would not be TOD, but the numbers in such a deal would end up being significantly closer to market rate conditions.

Also, I doubt TOD the scale of the fire station would ever result in being a strong enough reason to invest $20-$40 million or so in extending the Skyway that far.  Even if JTA could muster up that type of cash, then the question would become if this is the right use of transit dollars? If this concept is to ever make it past us simply discussing it online, I think some of these issues would have to be resolved early on.

[MEGATRON]

I don't agree with moving the fire station. I am for preservation, but the historical significance of that station is very, very small. I could think of some more significant lots in Springfield, or downtown that have more preservation value than the old fire station. I would let it fall.

This has always been my take on the fire station. 

Other than that, nice article.  I'd love to see the people mover extended into Riverside then to the stadium.

Oh, and Lakelander's post above is excellent.

[icarus]

ROI - You need to be careful not to confuse the justification of expansion of the people mover with a well intentioned idea as to preservation. 

Providing an expansion of a system to a street corner convenient to Fidelity, Blue Cross Blue Shield and Everbank Towers, Riverside YMCA, Haskell, St. Joe Building and several blocks of proposed residential, commercial and retail development seems like a meritorious basis on its own.  The idea is to make the service convenient to use.  Of course, this also means having a plan to link this one area into a greater transportation system.

Preservation of the Public School No. 4 or the fire station have merits of their own.  With budgets as tight as they are, the additional cost of retrofitting a structure to include all things necessary for TOD or a transportation hub don't make much economic sense.  A great and interesting idea but economically dead on arrival.

The idea would ideally be to plan or modify bus routes to feed into such things as expansion of the skyway so that we don't duplicate service and encourage more ridership and integration of a component of our transportation system that is otherwise woefully underutilized. (Hub and spoke).

[thelakelander]

ROI - You need to be careful not to confuse the justification of expansion of the people mover with a well intentioned idea as to preservation. Providing an expansion of a system to a street corner convenient to Fidelity, Blue Cross Blue Shield and Everbank Towers, Riverside YMCA, Haskell, St. Joe Building and several blocks of proposed residential, commercial and retail development seems like a meritorious basis on its own.  The idea is to make the service convenient to use.  Of course, this also means having a plan to link this one area into a greater transportation system.

Yes, but we have plans within our existing 2035 LRTP (Long Range Transportation Plan) and 2030 Mobility Plan to fund a streetcar that would actually penetrate Riverside while also serving these destinations.  Furthermore, we've been successful in getting a funding source earmarked for such an endeavor. If this came to fruition, what would be the point of a Skyway expansion, when it would come at the expense of another part of the transportation network.  I have these same concerns with BRT and commuter rail on the Philips Highway corridor.

[JayBird]

I think someone left the backdoor open bc it seems there have been a lot of trolls on the boards this past week.

There may be some, although IMO just because a person is offering a differing opinion, that doesn't equal to being a 'troll'. Not unless we want MJ to be like a boring communist country, with all on one accord at all times.

Doesn't equal being a troll IMO either, a troll is someone who argues just for the sake of arguing.  No fact or reason behind it, just to stir the pot.  It was just my personal observation.

[JayBird]

I get tired of people like the writer of the article feeding us crap and telling us its ice cream and everything will be so rosy.
JTA cant even run a bus company at a profit but we are trying to be sold on the fact we need to give them more and more money so they can continue to screw the tax payer even more when it comes to failing deals like the Skyway of which is not even done being paid for. JTA sold the community on how much money it would make and it never has BUT now its free and no revenue is being collected AND just who do you think has to cover that loss of revenue? JTA? NOT!!! They continually run at a loss we the tax payers cover annually.
JTA is nothing but a self serving Authority that looks out for themselves and will go to any length to lie to try and justify their existence as a transportation company.

Their failed track record speaks for itself but the writer wants us ALL to bow down and allow them to screw us again.

NO WAY! Not without a fight!

Perfectly understandable, but are mass transit agencies suppose to make a profit? Even while serving 8M fare paying passengers a day, MTA in NYC doesn't make a profit.  I do agree that JTA has been mismanaged, like most of the city govt/agencies.  I would also think it would better serve the taxpayers if it was split into separate agencies, one for roads and one for transit.

[JayBird]

Ocklawaha.........Can the skyway make a short radius 90 degree turn?

it pretty much already does...at Bay and Hogan

I wondered this as well, and thought of same example.  However, Riverside to Roselle is a much smaller turn area (even going to far side of Roselle) than Bay and Hogan.  I mean, it must be doable.

[JayBird]

Also interestingly, sunbeam joins the suddenly thickening ranks of brand new posters posting for the first time who weigh in for the sole purpose of explaining why transit, planning, historic preservation and our other founding ideals are a waste of time.

Interestingly they all seem to be using a very similar syntax, despite the switch to all caps in this latest iteration.

Such a coincidence that this is happening simultaneously with a recent outbreak of stalking against one of the founders of PSOS.

I bet they arent related.

Ha I was thinking same thing.

[Ocklawaha]

I believe many of you are being unduly harsh with Sunbeam, CHILL! BTW, WELCOME SUNBEAM! Now about that article, 'I'm your huckleberry.'

NO!
The Transportation Element of the Comprehensive Plan requires substantial growth of the area BEFORE any money is spent on the Skyway to Riverside and there is not substantial growth and two apartment buildings does not make it so!

Sunbeam, your rage is misplaced, and I suspect you've been reading the amazing work of Cato's: Randal O'Toole, The Heartland Institute and Heritage Foundation's: Wendell Cox, The Liberty Caucus (which is even attacking PRIVATE RAIL) and or the articles that come out of the NBRTI (National Bus Rapid Transit Institute).

I'm not picking a fight with the Tea Party (I count John Mica among my friends and will be meeting with him soon) here as I actually agree with much of their platform, I do think they are completely wrong on the subjects of mass transit, urban development and Amtrak. As I suspect you are using some of these sources, talk radio (which I also listen to) or good conservative magazines, they in turn are getting their information from the 'anti-transit evangelists.' (One really has to wonder why a forester living in Oregon, would fly to San Antonio to host a rally against San Antonio's streetcar plan-promoting buses instead. I thought our readers might like to see who is funding this anti-transit crusade through otherwise sensible conservative think tanks.

(NOTE DEFUNCT COMPANIES SIMPLY REPRESENT WHERE THE MONEY ORIGINATED)

Castle Rock Foundation (Formerly Coors Foundation) - Franklin Hobbs, Director, Chairman of the Board of Ally Financial Inc. (formerly General Motors Acceptance Corp. GM. THE SAME GM RESP0NSIBLE FOR DESTROYING OUR STREETCARS).
Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation - petroleum, chemicals - largest privately owned energy company - asphalt production
Earhart Foundation - White Star Oil Company
JM Foundation - Texas territorial bonds
John M. Olin Foundation, Inc. - petro-chemical industries
Sarah Mellon Scaife Foundation - Gulf Oil
Claude R. Lambe Charitable Foundation -  Buffalo Oil Corporation
Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation - Automation - Oil and Gas Industry from Rockwell Automation
Scaife Foundations - Mellon Oil, Gulf Oil, oil pipelines

The Transportation Element of the Comprehensive Plan requires substantial growth which is completely backward to what it should be. Good mass transit encourages dense, tax paying, growth. Transit is on the top 3 things a major corporation looks at for relocation, meaning it is boosting our local economy even though we don't see that benefit in hard numbers. The Omni, Hilton and former Sun Trust buildings originators have all said they WOULD NOT have come to Jacksonville without the Skyway. Wonder what the tally is for all of the taxes these buildings have brought in over the years?

I do not expect fire station 5 to rise to the top in encouraging new growth, but I do believe it could play a role with small restaurants, boutiques or offices.

Another point that both you and Lakelander missed is that with historic preservation we open up a plethora of new grant opportunities from major corporations that like to have their name on a project. So we wouldn't just be using transit funds. Also consider that we might interest the National Guard, Seabees or reserves to move the building as an exercise for their engineering and equipment operators (It HAS been done before).

JTA has years of waste and fraud and connections with the "Good Ole Boy Club"...

ABSOLUTELY TRUE, JTA HAS BEEN THE WORST MANAGED MAJOR TRANSIT SYSTEM IN THE NATION In annual revenue miles (2011) it ranked BELOW Hampton VA, Dover DE, and Pompano Beach. As a city we are the 12th largest population in the USA, 46th largest MSA, but in ridership (unlinked trips) we rank 82nd, El Paso is the 64th largest MSA, Fresno 54th, Madison is the 81st largest city, and they all out perform JTA. You are preaching to the choir leader.

...and nothing about Nat Ford has changed that mentality...

Since Nat has only been here about 6 months, and funding for ANY transit project is likely to take 5-10 years don't you think your being a bit hasty? I like Nat and think we've got the right man if City and State stay out of his way.

JTA continues run at a MAJOR loss to the tax payers while they continue to hand out raises and bonuses.

So does I-95, US 17, US-1, I-10, I-295, and the new I-795 will too. It's unfair to hold up transit, streetcars in particular, as losers since we've been pouring billions of dollars into highway construction since 1910-20, transit like highways, police and fire are public necessities but I would challenge you to purchase a new $800,000 dollar bus and prove you can make money at a fare people are willing to pay.

The money over the years out of our General Fund to support JTA and their failed operations is phenomenal while they continue to negotiate union and non union well endowed contracts to the highest extent possible making the tax payers cover their self centered worthlessness even more.

JTA has failed to perform in the past, true enough, but they get less for mass transit then many dozens of smaller agencies.

There still exists many incomplete projects from the BJP while the JTA pandered to Peyton and built things NEVER on the BJP or in the Comprehensive Plan. And we are supposed to trust JTA and the big heads with more money?

It wasn't JTA but 'Little Johnny' that stole the $100 million BJP put aside for transit improvements. Some of those incomplete projects include overpasses and interchanges which cost us somewhere around $70-$100 million each and they don't even have a farebox.

What is being dreamed about here is NOTHING but more ways of screwing the tax payer that will cost hundreds of millions if not a Billion dollars.

Sunbeam, I don't know where you learned your mathematic calculations, but the article plainly said the city engineer estimates the move and renovation to be in the neighborhood of $3.5 million, add to that the cost of the Skyway station itself, or locate it at Lelia and Riverside and have the Skyway meet it on the ground right behind the building.

PLUS during a finance committee meeting there was a presentation to redo the Skyway to a new operating system at a severely deep cost to the tax payers and when Crescimbeni asked the company about their past experience of such an operation the Committee was told by the company JACKSONVILLE WOULD BE THE FIRST SO THERE IS NOTHING TO COMPARE IT TOO.

I was the originator of the ANTI-SKYWAY movement, along with the late great George Harmon, Andy Johnson, Eric Smith and Jim Wells. SEE: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-aug-mass-transit-30-years-later-special-report  I'm also the guy that has labeled the stupid, bumpy 'trolley's' as Potato Chip Trucks (which is really the frame and chassis they are built on) the name stuck and today JTA and in fact some in Tx and Ok are referring to them as the PCT fleet.

Changing the technology now should only be done if Bombardier or any one of a number of monorail builders refuses to conform to our clearances and sell us new cars. The current fleet is about done. Overall we can't afford to change horses in the middle of the 'Cowford' again.

TALK ABOUT SETTING THE CITY AND THE TAX PAYERS UP FOR FAILURE, WASTE AND ABUSE AS TEST DUMMIES

.

You'll note the first photo in the article is a 'plan' by JTA under different directors and planners for a Riverside and Lelia Skyway station. My article (I'm an author and semi retired transportation consultant to the National Railways of Colombia...which we've privatized) is simply to say we could spend big bucks on another of the signature stations (which they plan), or the wild 'old depot' look of their previous plan. Meanwhile the firehouse would come down like 75% of the rest of our historic buildings in the core. This is simply an idea about adaptive reuse, preservation and an opportunity to turn from wrecking ball to opportunity. Who knows, maybe Fidelity would pay for it??? Stranger things have happened.

FUNNY HOW THE WRITER NEVER TALKS ABOUT WHERE THE MONEY WILL COME FROM BUT YOU CAN BET JTA HAS THEIR EYE ON EXTENDING 30 YEAR GAS TAXES WHEN THEY ALREADY BONDED THE CURRENT ONE 10 YEARS IN ADVANCE OF IT BEING PAID OFF AND BECAUSE OF THEIR FAILURES, WASTE AND ABUSE OF THAT TAX MONEY THEY CURRENTLY HAVE NO MONEY!!

As I said, the $100 million can be found in the 'Little Johnny Memorial Courthouse,' a building that still looks to me like an explosion in a pillar factory. As for other revenue, the national averages move up and down but a good rule of thumb INTERNATIONALLY is transit will recover 25% of it's cost from the farebox, and spend 75% of it's cost in labor. If we want JTA to ever reach that 25% they need to start getting transit creative.  For example I've always lived by this rule, 'running transit on hourly schedules is NOT a service, rather, it is a basic accommodation. Service in a large metro should run on 10-20 minute headways. Another rule that would advance their boardings is something I preached in Colombia; 'ON TIME means the wheel stops at the curb as the sweep secondhand of the watch crosses the 12,' NOTHING less is acceptable.

BUT BY ALL MEANS JUMP ON BOARD FOR REAMING OF THE TAX PAYER.

Consider parking enforcement downtown, doesn't make money, in fact the city has to subsidize it largely because of meters and garages that would not be necessary with decent transit. I am for FREE curbside parking downtown, subsidized by garage parking and parking companies.

WHY NOT MENTION THE DESIRE BY SOME PEOPLE TO GET A NEW CONVENTION CENTER BUILT AND HAVE THE SKYWAY RUN RIGHT THROUGH IT...

The purpose of a new convention center is to get out of the Prime Osborn, correctly known as the JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL. We have a private corridor rail service that will be knocking on our door within 5-10 years and we'd better have a terminal ready for it. Toss in Amtrak, Greyhound and JTA (which I would privatize) and state supported commuter rail and you'd have a very busy, commerce generating, one stop transportation center. But I wouldn't build a center like JTA has planned in past, sprawled all over LaVilla and actually larger then the Vatican City. Nat and various others have met with me and looked at a plan I've advanced to rebirth our rail/bus station without building a single building. Conventions as few and small as ours can be held in the arena, fair grounds, Hyatt or the Shrine. SEE: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-may-rethinking-the-jacksonville-transportation-center/page/1

OH YES, THE BIG HEADS HAVE PLANS THAT WILL COST MEGA MILLIONS IF NOT BILLIONS...

This too is true, our conservative governor is forcing the Branan-Chaffee Turnpike on us when the City and it's people have VOTED for no more tolls. Tolls on the road for the next 50 years won't pay for the paint used on the white lines of the 'Freeway.' Even if the Skyway was extended to it's original planned terminals, IE San Marco, Riverside, UF Hospital and the stadiums it wouldn't cost anywhere near a billion. Fact is since we already have the bones to build on, maintenance building, equipment, track, electronics, stations and right-of-way, future extensions wouldn't cost nearly as much proportionately as the original system which included all of those extras that we wouldn't need.

ALL BY A COMPANY THAT WORKS ONLY FOR THEMSELVES AT THE EXPENSE OF THE TAX PAYER.

JTA is not a company, it is a State of Florida agency.

Do you have a driveway that leads to a road? Which road? Bet I don't use that road,  so why am I paying for your street?
The same ideas are true of mass transit, I pay so you can ride, but unlike roads, transit will give us back that 25%.

GET INFORMED PEOPLE!!!!

I hope that is what I have done for you. 

[icarus]

ROI - You need to be careful not to confuse the justification of expansion of the people mover with a well intentioned idea as to preservation. Providing an expansion of a system to a street corner convenient to Fidelity, Blue Cross Blue Shield and Everbank Towers, Riverside YMCA, Haskell, St. Joe Building and several blocks of proposed residential, commercial and retail development seems like a meritorious basis on its own.  The idea is to make the service convenient to use.  Of course, this also means having a plan to link this one area into a greater transportation system.

Yes, but we have plans within our existing 2035 LRTP (Long Range Transportation Plan) and 2030 Mobility Plan to fund a streetcar that would actually penetrate Riverside while also serving these destinations.  Furthermore, we've been successful in getting a funding source earmarked for such an endeavor. If this came to fruition, what would be the point of a Skyway expansion, when it would come at the expense of another part of the transportation network.  I have these same concerns with BRT and commuter rail on the Philips Highway corridor.

I may feel differently if we actually had a plan for a central station, i.e. Prime Osborn.  In a debate of Skyway versus Streetcar, I think it comes down to a question of density.  I really am in favor of streetcars but the density relative to the two additional stops of the Skyway seems to make that expansion more pragmatic.   If you factor in the additional adjacent development which may come from the projects currently on the books, expanding the Skyway to Riverside and Forest makes even more sense.

I do agree with you on the Phillips corridor commuter rail issue.  While I hope at sometime the density/economics make such a route logical, I think it is far smarter to focus on fixing downtown first.

[thelakelander]

I'm not sure I understand your point about density. Streetcars have built and already support denser settings than Brooklyn (Brooklyn really isn't that dense...even with the new projects), all across the country. Portland's streetcar is a well known recent example. Both streetcars and the skyway are urban circulators that can serve that particular area with no problem. One just happens to be cheaper to construct, easier to penetrate into Riverside/Springfield, brings more TOD potential to the table, is cheaper to maintain (common infrstructure & rolling stock), and already has a local funding source we can work with to move things forward. The other is one that we need to brainstorm on what to do with when it reaches the end of its useful life.