Skyway + Brooklyn + Fire Station 5 = URBAN DYNAMO

[thelakelander]

Ock, I didn't miss the point about preservation grants to save the station. Preservation grants have been available for years and the station still sits in limbo. Adding $30-$40 million in Skyway costs, plus purchasing that expense, high profile piece of property isn't going to make it easier. Plus, by moving the building from its original location, you lose access to several preservation funding resources. There's also an argument that the preservation process and regulations are so restrictive, you're better off not even going after them (this was discussed with Midwestern developers at the Vanguard trip in Cleveland last month). Consider what I'm bringing up as more stuff that needs to be resolved before pitching a presentation to really sell the concept.

[Ocklawaha]

I'm not sure I understand your point about density.

I believe he was echoing the common conception that you sit and wait for a city to grow up thick and dense and THEN you try and punch a mass transit line through the middle of it. Fat Chance! As you know Lake, we must build for the future and plan where that density would be in our best interest.

...(common infrstructure & rolling stock), The other is one that we need to brainstorm on what to do with when it reaches the end of its useful life.

Wow Bro. this statement kills me! You and now most of JTA have put me in a position of being the Skyway's defender! OUCH! I do feel like it is a fools errand to go to the public again with another modal change. Putting streetcars on the structure isn't going to make those beams last any longer, though the idea of getting over the traffic in congested areas is appealing. Monorail does, after all, have off the shelf units available from a fairly large number of suppliers. Typically rail equipment is semi-custom most anywhere as the globe has many gauges, same is true for monorails. We might need a wider boogie (we have really large beams) and/or narrower car body but there are actually a number of companies building what amounts to mini-monorails.

Ock, I didn't miss the point about preservation grants to save the station...  ...Consider what I'm bringing up as more stuff that needs to be resolved before pitching a presentation to really sell the concept.

Not a problem, bottom line is this is just a concept. Hopefully someone (Fidelity/BCBS?) will embrace this sort of reuse and we'd see the old station saved.

Adding $30-$40 million in Skyway costs, plus purchasing that expense, high profile piece of property isn't going to make it easier.

My understanding is the actual property the building would sit on was FDOT's and was given to the city, it is the tiny segment within the fence - could be wrong on that but someone at FDOT told me. The drives to the west are already a city street - just one that doesn't go through anymore. There would need to be purchase of another postage stamp sized lot south of the little fenced property up to the next row of buildings.

Ock, I didn't miss the point about preservation grants to save the station. Preservation grants have been available for years and the station still sits in limbo. Adding $30-$40 million in Skyway costs, plus purchasing that expense, high profile piece of property isn't going to make it easier. Plus, by moving the building from its original location, you lose access to several preservation funding resources.

Except that it was already moved from its original location (347 Riverside Avenue.), any organization willing to offer funding grants would therefor be just as likely to fund this on the west of the street as the east, more importantly they might be willing to fund it at Riverside and Lelia (which negates your $30-$40 million argument), the beauty of this as a concept is it could be done in either location and it could be repeated as a signature preservation/TOD concept not found anywhere else.

In any case, I don't even expect anyone in the City/JTA/FDOT/JHS/JHPC etc. to even pick up the phone and try, which is REALLY the point in some of these articles. IMO we have the largest collection of lethargic, anti-change leadership in the free world, they are not creative, in fact, they are not even thinking.

I won't be selling this except in the unlikely case that someone actually were to contact me about it.

I will be continuing to sell the idea for the JRTC as I believe the 'multi-modal intercity bus terminal,' (a cover speak for a new Greyhound station and NOTHING more) is going to completely kill any value for the redevelopment of 8+ blocks of LaVilla. They are creating an island with a poison concept in the middle and where nothing else is going to grow - ever!

[urbaknight]

Ock, you know Nat Ford? Can you persuade him to kill the current JRTC plan and completely rethink the entire plan in favor of a TRUELY URBAN design?

[Ocklawaha]

Yes I know Nat, and will be meeting with him again fairly soon, as well as Brown, Mica (yes I know where his district is now)  Dave Leach, CEO of Greyhound, and a few others on the subject of RAIL and/or the JRTC.

[thelakelander]

...(common infrstructure & rolling stock), The other is one that we need to brainstorm on what to do with when it reaches the end of its useful life.

Wow Bro. this statement kills me! You and now most of JTA have put me in a position of being the Skyway's defender! OUCH! I do feel like it is a fools errand to go to the public again with another modal change. Putting streetcars on the structure isn't going to make those beams last any longer, though the idea of getting over the traffic in congested areas is appealing. Monorail does, after all, have off the shelf units available from a fairly large number of suppliers. Typically rail equipment is semi-custom most anywhere as the globe has many gauges, same is true for monorails. We might need a wider boogie (we have really large beams) and/or narrower car body but there are actually a number of companies building what amounts to mini-monorails.

It may kill you but eventually, we have to face the reality that money isn't magically growing out of trees.  Thus, we have to find ways to best utilize the limited tax dollars we have coming in. Sentimental value isn't a good enough reason to pour money into a money pit long term if there are technologies out there that can improve the long term sustainability of the system.  One of the issues JTA faced with the current expansion they are shooting for is the cost of purchasing new Skyway cars.  You literally have to have this stuff custom built.  That's one of the main reasons, you'll pay an arm and a leg to expand.

Just look across the country.  There are several transit lines out there that are operating on former freight, interurban and streetcar corridors. No need to fight for an 8 track if an iPOD proves to be a more financially viable option.

Adding $30-$40 million in Skyway costs, plus purchasing that expense, high profile piece of property isn't going to make it easier.

My understanding is the actual property the building would sit on was FDOT's and was given to the city, it is the tiny segment within the fence - could be wrong on that but someone at FDOT told me. The drives to the west are already a city street - just one that doesn't go through anymore. There would need to be purchase of another postage stamp sized lot south of the little fenced property up to the next row of buildings.

According to the property appraiser, the land the concept sits on is actually three parcels owned by three different entities.

0.11 acres - Bateh 2012 Living Trust

0.22 acres - FDOT

0.10 acres - LO Properties

Here is a link to Bateh's property record:

http://apps.coj.net/PAO_PropertySearch/Basic/Detail.aspx?RE=0900570000

click on map on the right and you'll see the various parcels.

Ock, I didn't miss the point about preservation grants to save the station. Preservation grants have been available for years and the station still sits in limbo. Adding $30-$40 million in Skyway costs, plus purchasing that expense, high profile piece of property isn't going to make it easier. Plus, by moving the building from its original location, you lose access to several preservation funding resources.

Except that it was already moved from its original location (347 Riverside Avenue.), any organization willing to offer funding grants would therefor be just as likely to fund this on the west of the street as the east, more importantly they might be willing to fund it at Riverside and Lelia (which negates your $30-$40 million argument), the beauty of this as a concept is it could be done in either location and it could be repeated as a signature preservation/TOD concept not found anywhere else.

Lots of assumptions being made here.  All I'm saying is you don't get concepts off paper without turning assumptions into facts.  At the end of the day, the concept requires someone to put up a lot of cash to make it happen, while taking on some huge financial risks.  You have a better chance of success, if you can present a concept that also uses statistical data and leads that reduce the thought of those risks up front.

In any case, I don't even expect anyone in the City/JTA/FDOT/JHS/JHPC etc. to even pick up the phone and try, which is REALLY the point in some of these articles. IMO we have the largest collection of lethargic, anti-change leadership in the free world, they are not creative, in fact, they are not even thinking.

This is my point.  You're going to have to provide answers to the tough questions up front if you want someone influential to back it or put their personal fortune behind it.  It may not be fair, but it is what it is.

There's no expansion of Balis Park, greenspace in front of the courthouse, local food truck craze, or mobility fee being collected if many of the people here presented an idea but were not willing to invest additional time upfront in convincing others to take up the cause.

I won't be selling this except in the unlikely case that someone actually were to contact me about it.

Unfortunately, then it's dead-on-arrival.

[Coolyfett]

Interesting conversation.

[Coolyfett]

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