Only the Little People Pay Taxes.

[Eazy E]

   

   Wait a minute, help me understand here. So are you stating that people who make more money use more government services and therefore should be required to pay more for the additional services they utilize?
   

No I am not

   

Or are you stating this from a socialistic point of view? That if you work real hard to make more money for your family it is your duty to give any extra money beyond housing and food to those who don't work as hard?   

MMMMMM, don't think I said that all. I think wealthy people should pay more in taxes to pay for things that our country needs, like roads, police, health insurance, etc.  I don't think I mentioned taking money from a wealthy person's pocket and "giving" it to individuals.
   
   

   Do you really think everyone making any type of good living is responsible for the corruption in government? Don't you think anyone of voting age is responsible?

   What? Where'd that come from? I never said anything like that at all.
   
   

    How about we stop paying out refunds to people who don't pay in first, then go on and ask for more money?

Sounds great to me, in fact that is pretty much what I was saying.
   
   

    How can you state this isn’t class warfare when you want someone to turn over their hard earned cash so it can then be handed over to someone who doesn’t pay into the system?

Um, so, the act of paying taxes is class warfare? If you’ll read, above, you will see that I am simply advocating that those who are rich should pay more taxes. Not that taxes should magically fly out of someone’s pocket and into the pockets of some “non-hardworking person”. I love that anytime taxes are mentioned, conservatives act like all taxes are spent on welfare and “giving money to poor people”. You know, the roads we drive on, the firemen who keep pour houses from burning down, the soldiers who drop bombs on Afghani and Iraqi civilians are all paid for with taxes.  Taxes aren’t some magical pixie flying into your bank and taking your money and giving it to a crackhead with 7 kids.
   

Why are the responsible working people of America being punished? Do you not think they under stress enough?

This is crazinessâ€"of course I think that, that is why I was saying the very rich should pay more in taxes.   

    What happens if they all throw their hands up in the air and say screw it?

Then I would say charge them with tax evasion and/or fraud.
   

    Tax increases only really hurt the working middle class, not the super rich. The rich can afford to find ways around increases. The fact that most liberals lump the middle class in with the rich is why you get class warfare comments. Perhaps the middle class is sick and tired of carrying the whole country? Ever think about that?

Yes, I do think about that, and that is why I was actually arguing, if you would have read, that middle class taxes should be alleviated and the very wealthy should start paying their fair share.
   

   btw, I think most people would say it is THEIR hard work that has gotten them where they are. There are rich people in third world countries, so this argument doesn't fly.   

Yes, most people would say that, while not realizing that tons of poor people work just as hard, if not harder, than they do. Teachers, police, firemen, secretaries, social workers, child care providersâ€"I would say all these people work much, much harder than some of the wealthiest people I know.

[Eazy E]

I do get your point, but your "rich pay range" is what I don't get. That pay range could include someone graduating from college with lots of debt, could include doctors with high student loans and malpractice insurance, and could also include families, extended families. Most people who grew up rich and get jobs because of their parents are making a lot more than the income range you have given. You are in fact including middle class families in your "rich pay range". An average MBA grad can start out at 80K in the south, they aren't rich, yet they have worked hard and usually are just starting out on their career. You want to penalize them because they worked their butt off through school to get a higher paying job? Do you know 200K for a family in San Francisco is not much? Do you want only foreign doctors whose countries have paid for their schooling so they can afford to live and work here? The point being DTP is right; this is too wide a brush. Besides these aren’t the people skipping on their fair share of taxes, it is the RICH meaning people making WELL beyond their needs and believe me they are making a lot more than 200K a yr.

I am still waiting to hear why you want more form the middle class and think people who don’t pay in should get refunds.

If 80K a year for one person is middle class and 200K a year for a family is not upper class, I am sorry, I just don't see that. Look, maybe it's just because I have worked with truly poor people in Mexico and parts of the US that makes me see that I am truly wealthy and blessed compared to most of the world if i am making even 40K a year? Maybe it's because I don't seek out material possessions and don't care about them (NOT saying that you do) that I have a different perspective and am just thankful to be where I am-- better off than most in the world, though you would, apparently, consider me to be quite poor.

[uptowngirl]

EasyE, I think we agree on everything with the exception of the classification of the rich. Does a combined income of 200K for a family of six make them rich? Maybe to someone who makes 40K for a family of six, but in reality it doesn't. It is all in perspective. Sometimes that firefighter making 60K a year has a stay at home wife taking care of the kids, where a family making 200K may have two working parents and pay for childcare, maybe a maid. Should they be punished because both decide to work? No way, that is the great thing about America you have a choice. Perhaps this wife would prefer to work than clean the house? Sometimes people work because they enjoy working (hard to believe I know!). Some people think if you can send your kids to college you are rich, others think they have scrimped and saved to send their kids to college and by no means are rich. I think if you raise the level of income to classify a "rich" person then you and I would be on the same page per your last comments. I know plenty of people who make 100K-200K, work very hard, didn't get help from their parents, support their families, pay their taxes, and in general are great law abiding people, but in no way should be considered "rich". They are making it, and may be able to save some monies too, that doesn't make them rich.

As to the standard of living in other countries, well yeah it is a lot lower in many countries. I guess I look at it differently; the “American poor” have no idea what it means to be poor. If they went to Mexico, India, Africa, or the Middle East they may actually no what it means to be truly poor? No SS, no healthcare, no welfare, no housing, no food, no education. We have a great many people in America claiming to be poor, which is causing them to not succeed in life. THIS is what is so frustrating. When given free housing, free food, free healthcare, free education, there is no excuse for not “making it”. Funny, you and I seem to be pulling form the same experiences but coming up with a different opinion. Guess that’s what makes this country so great!

[Eazy E]

EasyE, I think we agree on everything with the exception of the classification of the rich. Does a combined income of 200K for a family of six make them rich? Maybe to someone who makes 40K for a family of six, but in reality it doesn't. It is all in perspective. Sometimes that firefighter making 60K a year has a stay at home wife taking care of the kids, where a family making 200K may have two working parents and pay for childcare, maybe a maid. Should they be punished because both decide to work? No way, that is the great thing about America you have a choice. Perhaps this wife would prefer to work than clean the house? Sometimes people work because they enjoy working (hard to believe I know!). Some people think if you can send your kids to college you are rich, others think they have scrimped and saved to send their kids to college and by no means are rich. I think if you raise the level of income to classify a "rich" person then you and I would be on the same page per your last comments. I know plenty of people who make 100K-200K, work very hard, didn't get help from their parents, support their families, pay their taxes, and in general are great law abiding people, but in no way should be considered "rich". They are making it, and may be able to save some monies too, that doesn't make them rich.

As to the standard of living in other countries, well yeah it is a lot lower in many countries. I guess I look at it differently; the “American poor” have no idea what it means to be poor. If they went to Mexico, India, Africa, or the Middle East they may actually no what it means to be truly poor? No SS, no healthcare, no welfare, no housing, no food, no education. We have a great many people in America claiming to be poor, which is causing them to not succeed in life. THIS is what is so frustrating. When given free housing, free food, free healthcare, free education, there is no excuse for not “making it”. Funny, you and I seem to be pulling form the same experiences but coming up with a different opinion. Guess that’s what makes this country so great!

Well said, and I think I agree.
I mean look, I am by no means at all against wealth, I expect to be making what I consider very, very good money within 10 yearsâ€"which will then put me right in the wheelhouse of people I think should be paying more for taxes.  As is, I try to be thankful and grateful for everything I have, even though I am by no means rich at all at this point.  But, it is nice to have a rational discussion and debate where real ideas can be exchanged and perspectives altered, and respect shown for people who may feel differently, which is something this country is SORELY lacking over the past 7 years.

[civil42806]

"1. Most of the rich people I know do not work as hard as the poorer people I know. In fact, they work much, much less and not nearly as hard."

How many rich people do you actually know?  I myself don't bump into many of them myself.  Have bumped into the poor quite often, and they are usually poor for a reason.  When I say poor, I don't mean lower middle class I mean poor.


But in this country poor usually means a color tv, cable, and cell phone are included.

[Eazy E]

How many rich people do you actually know?  I myself don't bump into many of them myself.  Have bumped into the poor quite often, and they are usually poor for a reason.  When I say poor, I don't mean lower middle class I mean poor.

As a graduate of a prestigious local priavte school, it seems like all I know is rich people. Oh, and the mega-rich, too.
And that is not snide or anything, just the facts.
E.g. One kid who I grew up with (which i guess now makes him a "guy" not a "kid", but whatever) who, though now 28/29, is only now getting his first job (at his family company) because he has not had to work since graduating college due to his multi-million dollar trust fund.

But in this country poor usually means a color tv, cable, and cell phone are included.

I know, kind of dumb, isn't it?

[Eazy E]

still no one bothers to watch the video.

amazing.

I wish I was surprised.

While being on this board at work is easy and acceptable, videos are not. sorry.

[Eazy E]

We seem to be comparing ourselves to the poorest countries of the Third World, who arent citizens and don't pay taxes.

Why?  Is the comparison between ourselves and the Rich in our own country too uncomfortable?

What else are we supposed to aspire to from the third world?

Crib deaths?  Female Circumcision?  Public hangings on the grounds of drought?

Come on guys, gimme a break.

Um, I don;t think anyone is "aspiring" to 3rd world poverty. I simply brought it up because, having seen it firsthand, it gives me a very real and grounded sense of appreciation for the life I have. 

I mean, when you have seen people literally building "homes" out of duct tape and large cardboard boxes, it makes Springfield look like Palm Beach.

[uptowngirl]

We seem to be comparing ourselves to the poorest countries of the Third World, who arent citizens and don't pay taxes.

Why?  Is the comparison between ourselves and the Rich in our own country too uncomfortable?

What else are we supposed to aspire to from the third world?

Crib deaths?  Female Circumcision?  Public hangings on the grounds of drought?

Come on guys, gimme a break.

Um, I don;t think anyone is "aspiring" to 3rd world poverty. I simply brought it up because, having seen it firsthand, it gives me a very real and grounded sense of appreciation for the life I have. 

I mean, when you have seen people literally building "homes" out of duct tape and large cardboard boxes, it makes Springfield look like Palm Beach.

I agree EasyE, I also think it is fair to have a discussion around what is considered rich and poor in this country. There is a wide divide amongst people currently. I think any time you are going to ask any gorup of people to contribute more, you need to look at why. The people in your video obviously are not the 200K income earners. To that point you are right no further discussion needed, these people need to pay. On the flip side per the video: "Taxpayers need to be on a level playing field, or the people paying their fair share end up feeling like chumps." This includes not only the super rich paying their fair share but the poor getting refunds who don't pay in. Please don't respond with "well it is only 1 billion dollars, while these super rich are hiding 100 billion. 

[Eazy E]

We seem to be comparing ourselves to the poorest countries of the Third World, who arent citizens and don't pay taxes.

Why?  Is the comparison between ourselves and the Rich in our own country too uncomfortable?

What else are we supposed to aspire to from the third world?

Crib deaths?  Female Circumcision?  Public hangings on the grounds of drought?

Come on guys, gimme a break.

Um, I don;t think anyone is "aspiring" to 3rd world poverty. I simply brought it up because, having seen it firsthand, it gives me a very real and grounded sense of appreciation for the life I have. 

I mean, when you have seen people literally building "homes" out of duct tape and large cardboard boxes, it makes Springfield look like Palm Beach.

I agree EasyE, I also think it is fair to have a discussion around what is considered rich and poor in this country. There is a wide divide amongst people currently. I think any time you are going to ask any gorup of people to contribute more, you need to look at why. The people in your video obviously are not the 200K income earners. To that point you are right no further discussion needed, these people need to pay. On the flip side per the video: "Taxpayers need to be on a level playing field, or the people paying their fair share end up feeling like chumps." This includes not only the super rich paying their fair share but the poor getting refunds who don't pay in. Please don't respond with "well it is only 1 billion dollars, while these super rich are hiding 100 billion. 

Sure, I am not a person who thinks "poor" automatically means no taxes-- if you live here, you should be paying, and it should be commensurate with what you make. If someone is truly making very litttle money, I am totally open to the idea of public service in lieu of taxes.
My philosophy is: if you love America, and love living here and all the freedoms and pleasures we enjoy because we live in a great country, then you shoul dbe willing to give back to that country in the form of taxes, public service, volunteering or a combination of all.

[uptowngirl]

As it is questionable if income tax is even legal (yes, the government is powerful enough to enforce payment, that does not make it legal), I prefer EasyE's version of "giving back". Where in the constitution does it state we have to pay income tax to support anybody or anything? In fact income tax was a temporary measure, it was meant to be temporary when implemented to pay for war.

That being said, I took his comments to mean, even people who can't pay into the system can find ways to give back into the system "paying for the functioning of the government we elected and the responsibilities we assume in the process." This comment in and of itself is contradictory. What responsibilities are the citizens who pay nothing in and get refunds taking on? I remember in another thread arguing if this process was not income redistribution, I have no responsibility outside of my religious and personal beliefs to anyone other than my own family. Should religious beliefs around responsibilities to those less fortunate then I be made mandatory by the government? Everyone benefits, everyone should pay in in one shape or the other..

[RiversideGator]

Income tax was declared unconstitutional in its first incarnation around the time of World War I.  Then, in a bout of extreme shortsightedness, a Constitutional amendment was passed which now makes it constitutional.   

[RiversideGator]

BTW, I havent responded in this thread due to time constraints but it is laughable to suggest that the rich dont pay their "fair share" of taxes since (1) the bottom 50% of income earners pay almost no federal income taxes and many are indeed paid by the government through EITC and other subsidies, (2) the rich pay at higher rates than those who earn less and (3) the top earners pay an amazing portion of the total income tax revenues.

Oh and the experiences of the 20th century have taught us that collectivism does not work and if you strike down the rich you do not make the poor more wealthy, you just make everyone poor (except for a select few of the elite ruling class).  See Cuba for a current day example.

[RiversideGator]

The question is which government expenses are necessary, wise and constitutional.  I would wager that no more than 1/2 of the expenditures and probably far less satisfy these criteria.

[uptowngirl]

As it is questionable if income tax is even legal (yes, the government is powerful enough to enforce payment, that does not make it legal), I prefer EasyE's version of "giving back". Where in the constitution does it state we have to pay income tax to support anybody or anything? In fact income tax was a temporary measure, it was meant to be temporary when implemented to pay for war.

That being said, I took his comments to mean, even people who can't pay into the system can find ways to give back into the system "paying for the functioning of the government we elected and the responsibilities we assume in the process." This comment in and of itself is contradictory. What responsibilities are the citizens who pay nothing in and get refunds taking on? I remember in another thread arguing if this process was not income redistribution, I have no responsibility outside of my religious and personal beliefs to anyone other than my own family. Should religious beliefs around responsibilities to those less fortunate then I be made mandatory by the government? Everyone benefits, everyone should pay in in one shape or the other..

Are you 'giving back' to your family when you pay the electric bill?

Are you 'giving back' when you write a check for the marketting bill at the office?

We have to pay our expenses.  This is the thing that kills me about the modern 'conservative' pretenders.

Under their system no one has to pay any bills at all.  Just rack up the debt and let someone else figure it out.   Its like having a drunk with a compulsive lying problem in charge of the family checkbook.

One need look no further than the Massive Deficit Spender in the white house to see the truth.

I am not a conservative and why should I pay when others get the same benefits and more for NOT paying their bills? Why are some to be held accountable and some not?

"Just rack up the debt and let someone else figure it out"

Isn't this what the liberals do now as part of their income redistribution program? Lets give out money we don’t really have to people who never paid a dime in and we will just figure out how to pay off our debt, or hey let's raid SS, because we can stick it to the worker yet again....but we can keep on getting those all important votes.

I don’t see a difference between liberals jerking the workers around to give to the poor for their votes and conservatives jerking around the workers to give the rich to get their votes.

In the end it is the middle class worker that gets screwed.