CHANGING DOWNTOWN TO UPTOWN

[thelakelander]

I'm glad you are sticking with your figure 8 OCKLAWAHA.  When it comes to development in LaVilla, isn't there a planning and development committee that approves all projects before they are built?  How about a vision for the area that is more creative and dense than the one story buildings with huge parking lots.  I know it is a lot to ask of our city leaders but perhaps we can set stricter guidelines for development in the area.  Set the bar a little higher and say no to projects that don't meet qualifications of the vision.  If we get the Bay Street Station up and running there will be competition for housing developments in and around LaVilla.  It will be worthwhile to go vertical and not horizontal.

We can do visions without first investing millions into no-man's land instead of in areas where there are higher ridership demands.  In fact, we can start the vision process with the Skyway.  Its been there for nearly 20 years and JTA still doesn't have a clue of how they want the thing to work in the future.  In the meantime, we can invest our mass transit dollars wisely to ramp up service immediately in areas the residents currently live and want to go.

[rjp2008]

Streetcar question for OCK

You mentioned that having a streetcar rail next to your commercial property increases it's value and attracts new lease tennants to buildings. Knowing that: retailers always want to know from a developer 1) the approximate traffic flow numbers expecation and 2) the number of parking spaces that will be made nearby, do you have any kind of formula as to how many parking spaces a streetcar would equal in a given area.

For example, I want to build a six-block 2 story mixed-use retail/enterainment facility with limited slanted parking on the street. Let's say the street car is already there and runs down the middle. What kind of numbers can I tell tennant prospects they can expect from it?

[civil42806]

I'm sorry I just question the "build it and they will come" philosophy when its directed to mass transit.  Money is limited you need to use it wisely,  provide services to the more densly built areas.  Hopefully you can show a profit on that and then build out.  Theres very little to attraction to the lavilla area, other than the immediacy to I-95, that might be enough, but haven't seen much evidence of that in the past 10 years.

[fsujax]

There is something that attracts developers to fixed guideway transit.  I would suggest you look at Portland, Tampa and even places such as Kenosha, WS and see what has happend around thier streetcar lines. Portland built their streetcar system through some areas that looked worse than Lavilla and now you wouldnt even recognize the same area.  The same could happen for Jacksonville. Yes, the economy is bad and the world is coming to end (if you read some of the other postings on this site) but now is the time to plan, so that when things swing the other way we are ready to build.

[brainstormer]

I would argue an example of the "build it and they will come" is our very own Southbank.  I believe this portion of the skyway was only finished within the past 10 years and now look at the housing and retail investment with easy skyway access; The Strand, Peninsula, San Marco condos and soon the huge Kings Station complex.  It didn't happen right away, but having the skyway already in place certainly adds to the quality of the area.

[civil42806]

Your right, obviously all the development with the magnificent river view, during a housing bubble, was driven by a connector than can get you to the federal building quicker. 

[brainstormer]

Yes, Kings Avenue Station will have a beautiful view of the river...I mean I 95. 

[civil42806]

okay explain to me how a station that links to basically to hemming plaza and the fed building, inspired companies to invest mulimillions dollar investments.

[civil42806]

Or even better yet contact the developers and ask them why they selected the sites.  Did in fact the station stp enter into there calculations.  Should be easy to dio

[thelakelander]

There is something that attracts developers to fixed guideway transit.  I would suggest you look at Portland, Tampa and even places such as Kenosha, WS and see what has happend around thier streetcar lines. Portland built their streetcar system through some areas that looked worse than Lavilla and now you wouldnt even recognize the same area.  The same could happen for Jacksonville. Yes, the economy is bad and the world is coming to end (if you read some of the other postings on this site) but now is the time to plan, so that when things swing the other way we are ready to build.

All of the named cities above where streetcars were added did not add the initial line only in wastelands like LaVilla. They also connected riders to popular destinations where people already wanted to go.  For example, yes Tampa's streetcar spurred economic development in the Channel District, but that would have not happened if Ybor, the Aquarium, Cruise Port and Convention Center were not already in place.  We have limited dollars, if any.  There's no logical reason to take a streetcar north of Bay Street and west of Hogan, if it was to be done at the expense of an initial effort pushing a line from downtown into Riverside or Springfield.  I don't even see how "LaVilla vs Five Points first" is even a debate, if we really want a system to be highly successful from day one. 

[thelakelander]

Yes, Kings Avenue Station will have a beautiful view of the river...I mean I 95. 

Kings Avenue is technically a TAD (Transit Adjacent Development).  Anyway, a not having to build parking and a good deal with JTA to lease the land underneath were probably larger influences on Kings Avenue being feasible, than the Skyway itself.  Neverthless, I'm happy to see it go up and I hope we can see more projects like this rise in the urban core.

[Ocklawaha]

Streetcar question for OCK

You mentioned that having a streetcar rail next to your commercial property increases it's value and attracts new lease tennants to buildings. Knowing that: retailers always want to know from a developer 1) the approximate traffic flow numbers expecation and 2) the number of parking spaces that will be made nearby, do you have any kind of formula as to how many parking spaces a streetcar would equal in a given area.

For example, I want to build a six-block 2 story mixed-use retail/enterainment facility with limited slanted parking on the street. Let's say the street car is already there and runs down the middle. What kind of numbers can I tell tennant prospects they can expect from it?

1. Traffic will grow in proportion to the development along the route, and the type of line chosen. For example, the Heritage Streetcar system, is the cheapest to build and can convert to modern streetcar or even LRT in some more expensive cases. Marketing estimates still hold at attracting some 500,000 per year. These are riders that will seek out the streetcar experience, with some transit in the mix.

2. Parking needs a complete re-making in downtown to make it viable again, free but somewhat less on street parking, sell the downtown lots for new commercial private sector use, drop the space requirement on any new building within the transit corridors IE: Skyway - Streetcar, Maintain a program of outlaying lots with ease of access.

Hope this gets it.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

There is something that attracts developers to fixed guideway transit.  I would suggest you look at Portland, Tampa and even places such as Kenosha, WS and see what has happend around thier streetcar lines. Portland built their streetcar system through some areas that looked worse than Lavilla and now you wouldnt even recognize the same area.  The same could happen for Jacksonville. Yes, the economy is bad and the world is coming to end (if you read some of the other postings on this site) but now is the time to plan, so that when things swing the other way we are ready to build.

This is the truth, anyone in Portland BEFORE Light Rail can attest to the decay. I was just asked what I would see as the core line. Here's a breakdown.

The "8" which includes Duval - Lee - Beaver -Randolph and LaVilla is what I see as the core railroad. The car barn, key operation area, museum, shop, attraction (if possible)

The Riverside - Springfield - Stadium Lines are simply another couple of miles and are the key to the traffic on the line. It really would be tough to have one without the other. But I have no trouble in doing it all, as it's still quite small and would be inexpensive. I'd love to see us beat Birmingham. Of course we could have been the first of nearly 70 cities.

OCKLAWAHA

[cline]

There is something that attracts developers to fixed guideway transit.  I would suggest you look at Portland, Tampa and even places such as Kenosha, WS and see what has happend around thier streetcar lines. Portland built their streetcar system through some areas that looked worse than Lavilla and now you wouldnt even recognize the same area.  The same could happen for Jacksonville. Yes, the economy is bad and the world is coming to end (if you read some of the other postings on this site) but now is the time to plan, so that when things swing the other way we are ready to build.

True, but much of the development in Portland was spurred more by the large subsidies handed out by the City rather than simply building the streetcar line.

[Ocklawaha]

Portland did indeed build a package for developers, certainly nothing we couldn't do if we had the will. It's almost like, "Hey, this is FLORIDA, we don't need to work for a living..." But the bottom line, and PORTLAND says so, is that the streetcar was the string used to tie the pearls together. Once they lgot it up and going the race was on. Kenosha, home of a defunct AMC plant and a bedroom community for Chicago, didn't have such lofty toys or money, yet they still got the race to develop. Just something about a streetcar line.

OCKLAWAHA