Views on Heaven, is it real or a fantasy?

[Demosthenes]

The reasoning that something might exist because an old book says it does, and you really, really hope it does, does not in itself mean it actually exists.

There is, aside from antidotal stories, no scientific proof of heaven. Despite this, science doesn't deny the possible existence of heaven.

Conversely, science has some proof of evolution, the big bag theory, and many, many other things (Including an old earth), and because science so far is unable to prove them 100%, religious zelots scream heresy.

So with that in mind, I do not believe in heaven because quite simply, there is no proof.

[KuroiKetsunoHana]

Just because you do not see any value in a discovery that seems out of your reach does not mean it is meaningless.  If the existence of these other dimensions or universes are what keeps this one intact I think you might find their existence to have "great meaning"!    The fact is that some in science think this may be exactly what is going on, however scientific method is still not sophisticated enough to explain everything, including the existence of a heaven or what form a heaven might take.

if they keep this one intact, then sure, it matters a lot!  as far as i'd heard, other dimensions had no effect on this one.

To your earlier statement about religion being problematic for you because it seems to say human beings are special, I can only conclude that you are making this statement based upon what you believe are "all" the views of religions worldwide.  Let me assure you that not all religions teach that human beings are special as in superior to other forms of life or conscience.  In fact there are religious disciplines that suggest the existence of humanity is insignificant as compared to all that exists in this world and beyond.

you have a very valid point there.  i badly overgeneralized based on the religions that i've had more direct contact with, even though i know that there are many that specifically tell us we're not special.

Are you saying that human life has no greater importance than other living things on earth or that it is not special because in your view we are nothing more than a collection of stardust that just simply evolved like all living things on earth?  If so, are you also concluding that the ability of humans to think abstract thoughts is something shared by all living things or by human beings alone?  If the ability is indeed exclusive to human minds then I think most would consider that special.

i don't believe that any human is objectively more important than, say, any cow cat or kangaroo--after all, what criteria shall we use?  and yes, that's largely rooted in evolution.   i don't think we were specifically created, so ov course i don't think we were created special.  as far as the ability to think abstract thoughts goes, how do we know we're the only ones?  i think a human is a very poor judge ov what an elephant thinks.  also, for what it's worth, last year this happened:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_consciousness#Cambridge_Declaration_on_Consciousness

How do you come to the conclusion that belief in a heaven or existence beyond what is physical points to humans being special?

i suppose it doesn't have to--that's sort ov an artifact ov the context in which heaven or any sort ov afterlife has always been presented to me--and that seems fairly consistent with the reports in the article that launched this discussion; other than dogs, i don't recall any animals beïng mentioned.

[Cheshire Cat]

Are you saying that human life has no greater importance than other living things on earth or that it is not special because in your view we are nothing more than a collection of stardust that just simply evolved like all living things on earth?  If so, are you also concluding that the ability of humans to think abstract thoughts is something shared by all living things or by human beings alone?  If the ability is indeed exclusive to human minds then I think most would consider that special.

KuroiKetsunoHana quote: i don't believe that any human is objectively more important than, say, any cow cat or kangaroo--after all, what criteria shall we use?  and yes, that's largely rooted in evolution.   i don't think we were specifically created, so ov course i don't think we were created special.  as far as the ability to think abstract thoughts goes, how do we know we're the only ones?  i think a human is a very poor judge ov what an elephant thinks.  also, for what it's worth, last year this happened:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_consciousness#Cambridge_Declaration_on_Consciousness

Really good response and backed up by some religious disciplines.  Some disciplines in fact see all life with equal importance. Some have this view because they see the "sacred" in everything.  Others believe that that spirit conscious that can be found in humans is at some point expressed through all living things from a bug to a human being and this takes place through a series on incarnations.

I have always felt as you do that human beings are not really able to know the level of reasoning and critical thinking in any other life form objectively because the criterion used to measure is generally based upon what consciousness and abstract thinking is in humans. 

[Cheshire Cat]

The reasoning that something might exist because an old book says it does, and you really, really hope it does, does not in itself mean it actually exists.

There is, aside from antidotal stories, no scientific proof of heaven. Despite this, science doesn't deny the possible existence of heaven.

Conversely, science has some proof of evolution, the big bag theory, and many, many other things (Including an old earth), and because science so far is unable to prove them 100%, religious zelots scream heresy.

So with that in mind, I do not believe in heaven because quite simply, there is no proof.

Let me ask you this if I may Demo.  When you say there is no proof of heaven do mean as a physical entity or place?  For instance some individuals actually feel that heaven can be a state of mind or inner peace.  For the purpose of discussion, is it your belief that heaven as the place of streets of gold and harps residing in the clouds is the heaven by which we are measuring this discourse?  Or is it your position that no experience or dimension exists that many would consider to be heavenly? 

[Demosthenes]

Well, if heaven exists in someones mind as an idea, then heaven dies when the mind does. This is very much not what is taught in sunday schools all over the world.

Now, if you want to speak to a dimensional existence, like there being an infinite number of co-existing universes (aka multiverse), as opposed to some sort of magical ethereal plane that you get to go to if you believe in the right man-made deity, then we are cooking with oil and can have a larger discussion.

If you are talking clouds, harps, and a big ass gate with a gate keeper... sorry. No dice.

The primary difference is, the possibility of multiple dimensions existing could happen outside of the comprehension or knowledge of man, and would be a universal constant.

I beleive that the idea of God and religion is a man made construct in an effort to help us cope as we comprehend our finite existence. However, just because we give greater meaning to our existence, does not necessarily give our existence greater meaning.

[Demosthenes]

There are no assumptions. There are talking points about things I personally find interesting, and moderately more plausible than omnipotent beings sitting in utopia allowing only card carrying members, and there is a general sense dismissal of this, but no assumptions at all.

[Demosthenes]

Cheshire asked about "heaven being a state of mind". So, in the physical sense, if (notice the use of the word "if", in this case making the comment a suggestion, not an assumption) you subscribe to the belief that consciousness is simply a chemical reaction that causes a series of synapses in the brain giving life to the conscious mind, then it stands to reason that when the brain dies, the conscious mind dies with it, along with anything in it. Thus, if Heaven is simply a state of mind, as Cheshire suggested, then when the brain dies, heaven dies. The idea of heaven would still exist with other people, but for that person, heaven would have died along with the brain.

I can see how someone who believes that the conscious mind transcends the mortal coil might take acception to this notion.

[Cheshire Cat]

Just to clarify, I did not suggest that heaven exists in the mind.  I simply was trying to determine what criterion you may be using when you speak to the issue of whether or not heaven is real or imagined. 

Stephen had asked earlier what people who believed in heaven thought it might be.  Most folks who have been in discussion on this thread didn't reply so that is what I thought could use clarification in this discussion.  I think in your comments we can see that part of this discussion revolves around the state of human conscience, how the human brain functions and what constitutes the mind.  Are you of the belief that human conscience is confined to and created by the functions of the brain?

I think we can also determine that the pearly gates and roads of gold in the clouds is absolute fantasy in the context of this discussion.  For the record, I do not hold to the idea of such a heaven but understand that it may exist for some at more than one level. 

With regard to other dimensions and alternate universes my view is that if they exist and can be recognized as a reality in the face of a science that is not perfect, could there not be a dimension that would indeed be considered a type of heaven? 

[JayBird]

This thread continuously gets better, it is developing as we go.  Def one of the best is followed in a long time.

One thing I always try to keep in mind when discussing the bible with someone (usually under the pretext of them trying right error of my thinking) is that at the root it is a book of analogies.  Stories written in such a way as to convey a message to the masses.  Obviously if one tried to explain how you would transcend to another plane you would lose a high majority of the audience before they even heard what you'r trying to explain.  But everyone understands walking through a gate.  And why shouldn't we say the streets have gold and harps, that is a nice comforting feeling for someone seeking solace. 

First let me point out that some phrases in the Bible regarding heaven are applied to real world scenarios in our past.  For example, the famous Italian quote that says "I came to America because they told the streets were paved with gold.  When I got here, I learned three things. 1. The streets were not paved in gold.  2. The streets were not paved at all.  3. They expected me to pave them." I think the biggest debates about heaven, maybe faith in general is the interpretation of what is meant literally and what is there figuratively so as to deepen ones understanding. Sort of like learning math as a kid, no one ever buys 248 watermelons and 326 tomatoes ... But saying it in thy context helps us to visualize the problem.

Someone today posted about how there was no proof of heaven, and that may be true.  But there is proof of the Bible, which could be a description of heaven.  Even though I do not believe in the entirety of it, science has proven certain events such as a great flood which gives credence to the stories at least being based off of reality.

As for a few othe things mentioned, the dimension talk immediately brought to mind the "string theory" and the existence of the "m" or 13th dimension string, so the science is there.  Still developing, much like this thread.

And of course, the "God Gene" which I am kind of surprised has not been brought up yet.  Approaching this from science, because as I said in an earlier post I apply logic to everything to see if its true, then one cannot validate a transcendent plane of "heaven" without also validating some higher power.  And if it is all just chemical reactions and electrical pulses, what sparks it?  What ends it?  How is it that sometimes the human body just fails to keep working resulting in death when no logical reason for that death can be found?

Well I'm getting way off track now, but I included a quick link to wiki on god gene below.

And on a final note, I would not be quick to say that humans are equal to any other life here.  We may not be superior, however even science has proven we are more "capable to adapt" than others.  Some have even gone as far to say that humans possess "spirituality" that no other life form does.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene

[ronchamblin]

Well, if heaven exists in someones mind as an idea, then heaven dies when the mind does

hmm.  then perhaps you would like to document these claims.

Does an idea die?  Does the mind die?

Does something associated with the 'mind' die?

Boy.... I’ve been away ..... jailed for my opinions about religion.  I must read the posts and catch up.  But I do see something I’d like to comment on ... from Demosthenes and Stephen.



Can “heaven” exist in the mind as an idea?  Of course “anything” can exist in the mind as an idea.  Therefore, heaven can exist in the mind as an idea.  Can pleasure or inner peace be affected by one’s having the idea of heaven within their minds?  Surely.  And that is one reason why “heaven” exists as an idea in so many minds.


If the idea of heaven exists within the mind of an individual, giving comfort, hope, and balance to that individual, then the idea is cultivated and reinforced over the years, often during one’s association with religious groups or churches. 


But in my opinion, an idea exists, but does not live, and therefore it cannot die.  The idea which exists, can disappear however, but only if there are no humans who can understand and communicate it.   


As to the question.... Does the mind die? .... Although many wish or hope for the mind to continue after death, as the mind is the essence and center of the individual, there is absolutely no evidence that the mind survives the death of the brain which harbored it.  The brain dies, and because the mind is a function of, and depends upon, the living physiology of the brain, the mind disappears, in spite of our wish that it continue somehow, perhaps in some other dimension, or in a heaven.   


Depending on one’s interpretation of “Does something associated with the mind die?.... Well....of course the body was associated with the mind while the individual was living.  And of course the body will eventually die.


But “ideas” are also associated with the living individual via the brain/mind partnership.  But, as suggested above, ideas do not live, but only exist, and therefore they cannot die ...... they can only disappear.


I will review what has been posted since my absence.

[ronchamblin]

Lots of good ideas....  and civil too.  We must do something about that..... where is Stephen?


Diane .... the two occasions wherein you perceived something otherworldly was going on were interesting.  I wonder how many of us on the forum have had similar occasions?  These “events” seem to increase the probability of there actually being something supernatural out there.


I’ve actually had three “events”, each causing me to wonder .... to creep toward doubting my otherwise firm position of zero belief in anything supernatural.  But my realization that these events were in my mind, along with my understanding that the mind can play little tricks upon one’s consciousness, allows me to just “wonder”.   


I might mention that each of the these “events” occurred while I was in a relaxed state ......just before entering sleep..... where one’s mind is halfway between sleep and awake.


Two of these events were related to the idea of a god and to the idea of belief in a god.... as if a message was being conveyed to me.  The other was related to my deceased mother, who had passed several years earlier.


I have always wondered about these mysterious encounters with what appeared to be some entity.  Whereas two of the encounters came upon me without warning, one was somewhat of an invite from me...... asking for a “sign” .... so that I might believe..... so that I might finally “know” about this spiritual, religious thing.


I suspect that most people are like me in that we seek or desire something otherworldly or higher than we are.  We long for something bigger.... something that would give us more than this life. 


The spiritual .... the feeling of wonder.... the wish to open one’s life to something larger.... something more..  something eternal....  sleeps within us..... and by searching and being open to opportunity, we occasionally find a door through which we seem to catch a glimpse of it.  I too, long for the spiritual .... the otherworldly..... the eternal.


Those of us who are thought of as evil atheists, who seem unable to engage the traditional western forms of religious teachings, find ourselves, by way of our need for it, and by way of our concern for others ... for all of earths creatures, experiencing a spirituality in ways similar to that of the traditional religious individual.

[Cheshire Cat]

Just one correction about the events I shared Ron.  There are some experiences in life that need not be analyzed but rather simply felt deep within oneself and recognized, not perceived as truth. 

Perhaps the need to intellectualize everything is the very mechanism that makes it impossible to recognize the purity of what one has experienced as nothing more than a divine knowing.  There is a difference between subjective experience and pure insight as there is a difference between intelligence and wisdom.  Could it be that you have yet to experience the difference?

Do you care to share the details of the "experiences" you mentioned that did give you cause to wonder?  I would be interested to hear them.

[Demosthenes]

Just one correction about the events I shared Ron.  There are some experiences in life that need not be analyzed but rather simple felt deep within oneself and recognized as truth. 

Perhaps the need to intellectualize everything is the very mechanism that makes it impossible to recognize the purity of what one has experienced as nothing more than a divine knowing.  There is a difference between subjective experience and pure insight as there is a difference between intelligence and wisdom.  Could it be that you have yet to experience the difference?

This brings up a great question. If you knew for a fact that there was no heaven, and thus by extention, no hell, would you behave differently?

Would knowledge of no heaven make you live your life more completely, and enjoy it more, or would it kill your drive and give people a sense of "why bother"?

For me personally, it has no impact on my drive. I want to enjoy life, and I want my kids to enjoy life regardless of what, if anything, comes next?

[Cheshire Cat]

For me it would make no difference Demo.  I can recognize though that the promise of a heaven or threat of a hell can be used to manipulate the actions of some individuals.  Of course there are plenty of church goers in jails around the world charged with horrible crimes against others, so I am not so sure the option of heaven or hell really impacts the base action of humanity in most cases.

[ronchamblin]

Upon reviewing this thread about gods, heaven, and the supernatural, I discovered where Chesire Cat (Diane), post #84, had invited me to convey some detail of my three encounters with what seemed to be, or could have been, something supernatural; that is, outside of my ability to understand the physical causes of certain phenomena.

In spite of my being an atheist (evil person), I am always open to any events which might move me from the position of atheism.  In fact, I’ve sought with intention, and even requested, as if in prayer to any entity who might hear me, any “sign” of there being something supernatural which might actually exist.

So, the following is an account of what happened late in the year 2001, while I was living in a small apartment above my workshop, waiting for my house to be completed. 

The event occurred after I had gone to bed in the late evening, and while I was in that state wherein I was awake, but relaxed and before  slipping into the sleep state. 

Something during the day, perhaps a television program about near death experiences ... tunnels etc...  had made me curious as to the existence of a god and the supernatural, so I found myself, while in bed relaxing, asking any entity which might be about me, or anywhere in the universe who could possibly hear my thoughts, to give me a “sign” - anything to allow me to believe, as others seem to have been able to do, in some kind of supernatural being, a god, or  any entity of power greater than we humans.  I thought twice, perhaps three times, “Give me a sign”. 

No drugs.... no alcohol mind you .... only a wish to know... and perhaps a longing for something more than just me and the physical world around me.

In any case, a few seconds after my last request for a sign, I distinctly remember an odd feeling of calm, but also, within my mind, began to emerge a vision of a tunnel, a long tunnel, fuzzy or wavy about the perimeter, with a dull light at the end of it.  I felt myself going toward the light, down the tunnel, and although I felt a slight apprehension, I did not initially feel fear, as I somehow sensed that the entity, if there was one, would do no harm to me.  It seems to me that once one is faced with a powerful entity, logic and common sense informs that the entity has no motive to harm.  And too, there is nothing one can do in the presence of an all-powerful entity. 

To continue... I allowed myself to slip further into the tunnel, but as I journeyed, I became somewhat concerned, and as result of an uncomfortable feeling, withdrew my will to continue.  I returned to my normal waking state, and thought about this interesting journey, and as I relaxed further, regretted somewhat my abortion of it.

It was interesting that while I was allowing myself to drift down the tunnel, I sensed that I could continue to the end of it if that had been my desire.  My hesitation to continue down the tunnel was a consequence of my not knowing what I would have encountered at the end of it.  I had a slight awareness of the possibility that my life would have ended if I had continued.  Although I sensed that the ending of my life would have been okay, I felt that I was not ready for it to end. If felt that the entity, whatever it was, was a good entity, and therefore, had good intentions for me.

Of course, this mental event could have existed entirely, and only, within my mind, and could have been generated from the pressures of  persistent questions about the supernatural which had haunted me for years.

Whereas this event was initiated  by me, the other two came upon me out of the blue so to speak.  But I will continue with these at a later time.   

This kind of experience causes me to always question the nature of it, the validity of it, and whether it was entirely in my mind, or perhaps was an engagement with something outside of my mind.