Jville's Brooklyn Renaissance: Planning for the Future

[JeffreyS]

Simms seriously are you trying to present evidence that we shouldn't let people board the Skyway at an existing Skyway stop? 

[simms3]

No, I'm just doing what I always do - play devil's advocate.  There are a small handful of cities in America where taking public transit is actually easier and signnificantly more cost effective than using an automobile.  There are also only a handful of cities in America that are not under significant influence of Tea Partiers and anti-transit folks (hint, both small groups are the same group of cities).

Jacksonville is and will likely be for at least a good while longer a city where it is easier and still cheap to own and use an automobile relative to relying on public transit.  Add to that the conservative local politics and the sway of anti-transit, anti-downtown folks and you have a smaller "fuel tank" of political and financial gas to increase transit and do stuff for downtown (not to mention I don't blame Jaxson's skepticism based on city officials' track records of success or lack thereof).

I'd love for there to be a Portland streetcar system already in place (by the way even in Portland there are public political roadblocks to transit projects and the latest streetcar was controversial and hardly unanimously supported by the public).

However, while I encourage Peninsula and Strand residents to walk on over to the Skyway and use it and the local bus system to their heart's content, I do think incrementally increasing transit access to high income car users one small (but potentially expensive in Jax terms) solution at a time is NOT good for local transit political support.

Since Charlotte has been very transparent about using transit for economic development rather than as a transit tool (because they know it's still too easy to get around by car and using rich people's tax money to build rail lines to serve poor captive riders only politically works in Atlanta - oh wait, no it hasn't!), they did rail through a development zone, not through historic neighborhoods.  So, I also think doing streetcars through Avondale is a waste because then you'll miss out on the opportunity to do it in a greenfield where you can build cool new apartments for downtown Creative Class workers under the age of 30 who will actually ride it in and give supporters the numbers they need to start the next project.

Catch my drift?  Maybe I just don't have enough faith in Jacksonville politics...I'm not anti anyone using transit and heck, there can never be too much, but most people in America nowadays, especially in conservative car oriented cities such as Jax (with consolidated governments where the majority has no connection to the original city I might add) are rather opposed or skeptical of transit.

I don't know the cost of a Skyway platform or the cost of integrating it into the system.  I am skeptical that it's worth it for a few hundred units (we can tout total SF retail and # apts proposed for Brooklyn...but we all know the retail will serve commuters going home and Ortega moms who would prefer to drive to Riverside Ave vs San Jose, and the apts figure is still very small and many if not most will be working on SS anyway, reserving Skyway use for DT events).

[simms3]

^^Stephen - I also posited that incremental change is not good (we must be on same page ).  I think a full blown line like LYNX blue or a totally revamped bus system with new routes and stops/stations is the way to go to make a positive impact with transit, politically and in terms of usefulness.

[thelakelander]

LYNX is an incremental change.  It's been over a decade now since first starting a short tourist streetcar on that line.  The LYNX LRT line operating now, is only a 9 mile link serving one corridor in the city.  It would be comparable to running only one LRT line from DT to Avenues.  Over the next 30 years however, Charlotte has a pretty aggressive plan to expand.

[thelakelander]

I don't know the cost of a Skyway platform or the cost of integrating it into the system.  I am skeptical that it's worth it for a few hundred units (we can tout total SF retail and # apts proposed for Brooklyn...but we all know the retail will serve commuters going home and Ortega moms who would prefer to drive to Riverside Ave vs San Jose, and the apts figure is still very small and many if not most will be working on SS anyway, reserving Skyway use for DT events).

Without knowing the cost or having a general idea of how much it takes to build a ground level platform along a spot where the system already exists, how can you immediately come to the conclusion it's not worth enhancing connectivity throughout DT? This is one simple and cheap move that impacts the Northbank and Southbank moreso than anything else. 

Also, let's be real.  We all know if this place goes up, you can forget about another grocery or pharmacy, etc. opening in the North or Southbank anytime soon.  That means, their residents are going to be forced to drive to Brooklyn for basic needs.  If you're interested in urban living, why choose either over Brooklyn or Riverside?  By ignoring multimodal connectivity, you basically place most of DT at a competitive economic disadvantage against an isolated sub-district.  That's the definition of failure......if the goal is a vibrant walkable downtown.

[simms3]

^^^If a Fresh Market or similar high end specialty grocer does take the anchor space at the retail development, the target shopper is 35+ women, not young professionals.  In fact, given a lower resident threshold than you think, Fresh Market and Publix can co-exist in the same half mile radius.  In fact, I work on a shopping center with a 70,000 SF Safeway right next to a 25,000 SF Trader Joe's...

For an auto oriented Sunbelt city as small as Charlotte, a 9 mile LRT line is more than what I would call "incremental", even if over the years it will be incrementally expanded.  Jax doing a similar LRT line would be akin to a city the size of Atlanta adding 2 HRT lines to MARTA and building a Central Station to handle HRT, Amtrak, future HSR, etc.  I'm just talking about these one-off small projects that consistently fail or receive negative press and add up in the minds of Jaxsons as being bad for trying to get a large project that might work off the ground.  It should all be bundled up in one package (why the hell do you think Congress bundles save the whale legislation in with Medicaid reform legislation, etc etc).

[thelakelander]

Publix isn't coming to DT anytime soon, regardless of Fresh Market. The president told me himself. Charlotte's LRT isn't a first step. The little seldom used short streetcar line came first in the 1990s. From what you've described in this thread, that would be considered a failure. Also, a platform addition along the Skyway shouldn't be viewed the same way or compared with a major transit project or expansion. BTW, what's your definition of failure for attempting to improve mobility in downtown specifically? Is there a certain dollar figure you're working with?

[tufsu1]

I'm still blown away that one can live in a city like Philadelphia for 5 years and take a cab less than 10 times...what were you stuck on one block for 5 years, never going out at night? 

nope...in fact, I only took a cab 3 times in those 5 years....instead, we took transit, rode our bikes, and/or walked!

[simms3]

^^^I can gather that without even asking the prez, and I'm sure San Marco is still on their radar (when DT isn't), but what I'm saying is that Publix and WF or Fresh Market can coexist as they serve entirely different demographic groups and sell totally different merchandise (if a residential explosion ever does happen DT or nearby).

We're talking about two different things altogether, you and I.  If Jacksonville were progressive and was able to prioritize a financial emphasis and political emphasis on public transportation, I would be all for experimenting, implementing, one-off $500K projects (heck charitable groups out here are backing parklets and bus shelters), etc.  I'm just worried that if Jacksonville JTA/council/whatever agency connected goes forward with paying whatever it costs ($500K, $1M?, $3M?) to put in a Skyway platform in Brooklyn as a standalone project, and it doesn't payoff in the mind of the public, the whole freakin system and anything related to public transit thereafter is screwed.  I'm forecasting a ridership increase failure at this point for a Brooklyn platform based on what I think I have observed in similar situations elsewhere.  <600 units (maybe) with a free parking ratio of 1 spot per bedroom and a shopping center geared for auto users on their way home (or local moms looking for an alternative to SS) are not heavy ridership producers, especially for a "circulator" system that is much more useful for office lunch hour traffic and DT events than it is for "getting around".

[simms3]

I'm still blown away that one can live in a city like Philadelphia for 5 years and take a cab less than 10 times...what were you stuck on one block for 5 years, never going out at night? 

nope...in fact, I only took a cab 3 times in those 5 years....instead, we took transit, rode our bikes, and/or walked!

I do all the same...but I frequently end up in neighborhoods at night, drinking when it is simply a must to take a cab.  Plus, I actually know people who commute by cab (to them it costs $500/mo to park at office and potentially another $300-$400 at your apartment, or they can rely entirely on cabs all month and spend less than $400...transit + cab could run $100-$200/mo when mixed effectively).

I know Philly to a smaller degree as a visitor and love it (have family there actually), but no offense SF is far more walkable and transit friendly and I can barely imagine taking a cab a mere 3x per month or two.  Even in Atlanta I took a cab a fair amount, as did literally every soul I knew there.  Visitor?  99% of visitors are taking a cab, in any major city.  There's a reason there are like 5 apps now to make cabs even cheaper, easier and more abundant.

[thelakelander]

^^^I can gather that without even asking the prez, and I'm sure San Marco is still on their radar (when DT isn't), but what I'm saying is that Publix and WF or Fresh Market can coexist as they serve entirely different demographic groups and sell totally different merchandise (if a residential explosion ever does happen DT or nearby).

Yes, stores can co-exist when there is a market to co-exist in.  Between Brooklyn, the Northbank and Southbank, you don't have the demographics to support multiple stores of that size.  Unless you're saying extend the Skyway to San Marco, you'll be asking Northbank/Southbank residents to pay more for the privilege of still driving to get to things one assumes already exist within a vibrant walkable setting.  That person would be better off moving in the parking lot of SJTC or Tapestry Park.

We're talking about two different things altogether, you and I.  If Jacksonville were progressive and was able to prioritize a financial emphasis and political emphasis on public transportation, I would be all for experimenting, implementing, one-off $500K projects (heck charitable groups out here are backing parklets and bus shelters), etc.  I'm just worried that if Jacksonville JTA/council/whatever agency connected goes forward with paying whatever it costs ($500K, $1M?, $3M?) to put in a Skyway platform in Brooklyn as a standalone project, and it doesn't payoff in the mind of the public, the whole freakin system and anything related to public transit thereafter is screwed.  I'm forecasting a ridership increase failure at this point for a Brooklyn platform based on what I think I have observed in similar situations elsewhere.

Yes, we are coming from two different angles.  I'm placing a value on the ability of connectivity and walkability to enhance economic development throughout the core.  I'm also viewing the $184 million Skyway as a downtown amenity that should be integrated into all future land planning in the downtown core. You seem to be focused only on ridership and what suburban Jaxsons think about transit.  I'll say, I'm pretty excited to see where things will go with the DIA and CRA plan.  I believe transportation within downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods will play a larger role than it has in the past.

<600 units (maybe) with a free parking ratio of 1 spot per bedroom and a shopping center geared for auto users on their way home (or local moms looking for an alternative to SS) are not heavy ridership producers, especially for a "circulator" system that is much more useful for office lunch hour traffic and DT events than it is for "getting around"

Connectivity is a two way street. You're serving much more than two Brooklyn developments by tying them together with the rest of the downtown core.

[thelakelander]

Simms you arent taking into account the fact that Brooklyn is not really walkable, even with retail.  There will be about a thousand cars added to the environment between the units and service employees for the facility.  These people will generate multiple trips per day.  And there still wont be easy access to entertainment.

What about the 11 East resident who wants to pick some hamburger meat or flowers for a date?  What about Knight Lofts resident who wants to buy some organic produce?  What about the COJ worker who wants to pick up something at Panera Bread?  Connectivity with the Brooklyn projects extends the concept of downtown walkability far outside of Riverside Avenue.  That's something I don't think Simms3 is placing a high value on.

Ideally what we would do is get partial private subsidies to build out an extension of transit from the Brooklyn Station all the way into the Five Points Publix complex.

The Skyway will most likely never be extended south of I-95. However, that won't be a problem if we let the mobility fee do what it's intended to do. A streetcar will help resolve the issue of transit connectivity between Riverside and Downtown.

Simultaneously, following Ocks plan to take the system to the heart of San Marco would create a connectible, multi node little system that would give people plenty of incentives to ride.

A Skyway extension to Atlantic Boulevard is probably the most logical extension for the Skyway, due to the presence of the FEC tracks. That was actually a part of the mobility plan until Curtis Hart lobbied to have the money moved.

[Spence]

  [/quote] Give me a few minutes and I'll find and post a map of all proposed fixed transit routes in Jacksonville over the next 20 years.
[/quote]

did you ever locate this map?

would LOVE to see it!!

[thelakelander]

Yes. I posted it a couple of pages ago. Here it is:



http://www.northfloridatpo.com/images/uploads/general/LRTP_summbrochure.pdf

[Spence]

1.
Am I being too naive to ask for an approximate dollar figure for the no-frills skyway express shelter&bus stop west of McCoys creek near the Leila/May/Riverside Ave/Haskell U-turn/service drive?

2.
What would a simple walkway with lighting, fencing and a shade pavilion at the Operations&Maintenance center cost ?


3. thanks for re-posting the map, I don't know exactly how or why I was expecting something different.
I guess not seeing all of 9B threw me off.
Thanks