Huge new development proposed on Fishweir Creek and St. John's Ave

[MEGATRON]

I think it is wise to be concerned sooner rather than later as this new PUD moves through the City's administrative process; the stakes are very high.

As long as the word 'concerned' doesn't mean 'opposition', then I completely agree.  Saying the 'stakes are high' and 'If they ask for a 10 and eventually get a 6, when the property should only support a 3, then it's not OK!' is nothing but unproductive hyperbole.  Rushing to conclusions and quoting square feet is premature.  I've found that after 11 years in the industry that one should be honest and stick to the facts. 

If someone in Planning is quoting numbers for public consumption when neither a site plan nor complete PUD application has been submitted, then that is a REALLY bad thing... like you should probably lose your job kind of bad thing.  If that is indeed happening, then perhaps an internal investigation is warranted.  Conjecture only leads to people jumping to misinformed conclusions and is quite frankly not fair to any party involved.  That's simply hysteria and the neighborhood will never move forward in a positive direction based on people whipping up hysteria. 

Seeing as though I am a neighbor to this development, I will be glad to reach a conclusion once the pen actually hits the paper.

There is obviously someone in the COJ planning apartment with an agenda and a big mouth.

Our city deserves better.

[Dog Walker]

There was a brief article in today's Jax Business Journal:  http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2013/04/29/luxury-apartment-retail-development.html

Not much more information.

BTW, any information submitted to a City department is public information which any City employee must divulge at request. 

The meeting this afternoon will answer the questions about size and mixture or uses.

[Gators312]

I think this thread is gonna be awesome! 

[fieldafm]

BTW, any information submitted to a City department is public information which any City employee must divulge at request. 

There is a HUGE difference b/w someone submitting a zoning application, which is in fact public record... and someone in Planning spreading false information and passing on innuendo.  There is a BIG ethical difference in those situations.     

[Intuition Ale Works]

There was a brief article in today's Jax Business Journal:  http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2013/04/29/luxury-apartment-retail-development.html

Not much more information.

BTW, any information submitted to a City department is public information which any City employee must divulge at request. 

The meeting this afternoon will answer the questions about size and mixture or uses.

Where did the 600,000 square foot number come from?

[Dog Walker]

Evidently there are four or five different iterations of the PUD in the works and that figure came from one of them.  It was mentioned as a possible top figure.

All working documents in city departments are public documents and the planning department people are very careful NOT to repeat things said in discussions or idea floating sessions.  Ask the Business Journal reporter about that.  But if it is on paper or in emails or recordings it is public.

Everybody stay cool until the facts are completely available.  All this is second and third hand to me too so let's not go all CNN.

[fieldafm]

and the planning department people are very careful NOT to repeat things said in discussions or idea floating sessions

That has not been the case lately and that is a BIG problem. 

[Dog Walker]

The 2005 PUD application has a 17 story condo core surrounded by stepped down sections to 11 stories surrounded by 9 story section.  The shoreline shows four story townhouse condos lining it.  Plan also shows marina with four story condo complex behind it.

It's big and dense but it would not be a Soviet style apartment block.  Multiple buildings, multiple levels and roof lines.  Love to see an elevation.

[thelakelander]

Here's a rendering of the 2005 proposal I found in our archives of dead projects:

[Tacachale]

This definitely feels like someone's trying to poison the well. Unfortunately it starts everyone off on tangents like "it's too big" before we know anything about the size, let alone the configuration.

Some of this speculation is really reaching. There's already retail, and there's already residential, what would the impact be if they were at the current capacity? Or at the actually highest capacity they're zoned for if the sites weren't mostly empty parking lots on the waterfront? It's hard to imagine that the current state of affairs should be the desired status quo.

And comparing this to the Riverside Avenue developments and their impact on the street is pretty off. Sure, Riverside Ave is much wider than St. Johns Ave, but it serves a ton more people than those who live (or will live) there, and more than St. Johns. There's no need to jump to the most negative conclusions before we even know what's planned for this site.

[Dog Walker]

Well, now we know what is planned for the site.  350 apartment units.  42,000 sq. ft. retail, same as now.  Five story parking garage right up against St. John's Ave.  These are proposed maximums.  When it was condos in the 2005PUD there were going to be 160 units.  Commander apartments are currently 99 units.

Lawyer for developer says that aim not to increase traffic on St. John's or reduce it from current level.....and they are going to raise unicorns on the property to carry people over the river, I guess.

Marina plans have vanished as you would expect when moving from condos to apartments.

600,000 sq ft. figure is if you include the square footage of the parking garage.  It is just over 400,000 for retail and apartments assuming that the apartments would average out at 1000 sq.ft. each.

Johnathon Oliff, representing RAP, also expressed concern about possible maximum size said that they are willing to work with the developer, but that the organization had to oppose the re-zoning request until the final plans were more developed. 

Several speakers expressed concerns about the increase in traffic and that the size of the development is out of scale for the neighborhood.

One speaker brought up a new concern.  Fishweir Elementary School is directly across the street and the children of the apartment renters would have to go there and it is already at capacity.

Robin Lumb, Jim Love and Lori Boyer were all in attendance.  Jim Love said he was sure that the neighborhood and the developer could work out a mutually agreeable arrangement.

Looks like everyone has staked out beginning negotiation positions.  Everybody was very polite at this stage.  Stay tuned!

[thelakelander]

^Thanks for the update, Dog Walker!

[JeffreyS]

I think we should interject ourselves right here to try and facilitate good public access to the river along this new development.

[Cheshire Cat]

Dog Walker, did the plan they presented look anything like the drawing from 2005 Ennis found?  I am thinking that everyone thought it was an ordeal getting Mellow Mushroom into the shops of Avondale.  I think we are fixing to see some real drama over this.  Right now river access is basically access to a muddy sandbar.  I have heard there is some research looking into this reality and decisions being made about dredging or allowing it to remain shallow.  I don't think Avondale or Ortega will go for the height, the lost Marina or the parking lot abutting St. Johns.  This is going to be interesting to watch. 

[thelakelander]

Several speakers expressed concerns about the increase in traffic and that the size of the development is out of scale for the neighborhood.

One speaker brought up a new concern.  Fishweir Elementary School is directly across the street and the children of the apartment renters would have to go there and it is already at capacity.

It's not out of the ordinary to want to see more development details before approving a PUD rezoning. I have a few questions and comments:

1. Was a scale for the development defined?  Just wondering if out-of-scale comments are based on something factual, such as proposed building heights, setbacks, architectural details, density compared with rest of area's multifamily properties, etc.

2. Is there any idea of what the average household size/age is for the demographic this project will be marketed too?  Whatever that will be will provide a better idea of the impact on schools in the area.

3. In terms of traffic, final development density and scale aside, it seems like this would be a great opportunity to address the intersection of Herschel and St. Johns in a context sensitive manner.  If done right, that should result in a safety enhancement for the community.