Issues with Bethel Baptist Parking Area

[Mathew1056]

Why is it that Bethel Baptist Church gets to park there vehicles in what is publicly owned land intended to be used as public space?

The church has supposedly been approached about the issue before, but nothing seems to have been done. It would be one thing if there were signs saying "public parking", but to the standard passerby it would appear that the land is strictly for church parking and possibly owned by the church. Of course, this is not the case. A closer look at the property unearths further disturbing characteristics. Half ass paved entryways exist at two corners of the lot, only encouraging its current use. Who the hell paid for that? I hope not the city. If Bethel is going to be using our public space for their convenience than I would at least like to see them out in Klutho Park picking up some trash every once in a while. Why should they get to breeze in and out Wednesdays and Sundays and not take any responsibility? Some of use live here.

[thelakelander]

I don't know the history behind Bethel parking on these parcels but for much of the 20th century, they had buildings on them. For many years, the lot north of 1st Street had an ice cream factory on it.

[Mathew1056]

I'm sure there is a long history of Bethel using the adjacent properties for parking. I have seen pictures of structures on the parcels north of 1st. I'm actually not too concerned with that. It is city owned land, but I'm more concerned with the property south of 1st. It lies within an area considered parkland, and I'd imagine is maintained by the city. If it is going to be used for parking, efforts need to be made to inform citizens that it is for public use and properly maintain it as such. I'd much rather see it be used as green space, but i'm sure there would be an outcry by Bethel.

[thelakelander]

South of 1st had buildings on it as well.  I'd have to go back and verify with the sanborn maps, but I believe some were automotive repair related.

[Spence]

COJ mapping shows city ownership of this entire section shown in Mathew1056' post.
I agree, if any church or any other entity is to be allowed use of the land for parking, good stewardship and any official agreement must require the congregants (maybe) and (certainly) the ministers, deacons, and church administration to live by example and get themselves out there to foster the alliances which will better the park as a whole. 
No more paving of our parks.  Spread some zoysia or rye seed!
Strength in numbers.
This matter should be addressed in their Sunday and Wednesday sermons.

Perhaps they need a nudge, but screw is a bit much.

[mbwright]

Might be a good location for an urban garden, complete with chickens.   

[Ocklawaha]

If people parked in this space because a sporting event was sold out, or for a LGBT picnic, or for a 'dogs in the park' event, how much do you want to bet that not a word would be said about it?

Overflow is a great problem to have in any successful endeavor, I bet the Ritz Theater would love to be parking people on a nearby patch of grass.

[JaxByDefault]

A few weeks ago, the city installed a temporary fence to prevent parking on the park land north of 1st St. (shown in the top right corner of the photo). That are of the park was turning into a mud pit with flooding from Hogans Creek and constant parking. It seems that parking is still allowed on the lot directly across Hogan St (to the east), but I do not know if that is part of the park or privately owned.

[Mathew1056]

I appreciated the name change.

@Ocklawaha. I see your point, but you are not taking into account that Bethel is an organization with regularly held meetings. This is not a sporadic event with an unexpected large crowd, this is an accepted norm that the city and the church ignore everyday.

The point is not that there is overflow, it is that there is reoccurring overflow in a city park. The Ritz has plenty of empty lots it can fill. Green space is limited downtown it doesn't need to be turned into a parking lot. Why would gays want to come and have a picnic there if that was the case.

This is not an attack on the church. They would actual stand to benefit from a more attractive park. I'm not picking side. I'm just pointing out the obvious. 

[kreger]

It's just plain rude. I say start issuing tickets, the city needs the money anyway. I wouldn't have a problem if they were playing a role in cleaning up Hogan's Creek or contributing to the park in some way, but lets be honest, they aren't even doing outreach work to help those that use the park as a toilet. I'm sure those people could use a nice place to live and a hot meal every now and then. If that's too much to ask, then the church should start paying property taxes like the rest of us. Screw Bethel Baptist, shame on Metrojacksonville.com for changing the heading. How stupid.

[ubben]

I completely disagree. This cult…oops, I mean church... should not be allowed to park on our city park land and get away with it by picking up some trash every now and then. Bethel should be paying steep rent to park on all our land. And taxes, by the way, since we all know damn well Baptists use their churches as political brass knuckles, thrashing anyone who tries to defy their stranglehold of lies and stupidity. Remember separation of church and state? Separation of church and my goddamned parks!

Weren't these the same folks trying to rename our streets just a couple weeks ago?

[spuwho]

Hey Lake,  Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Bethel Baptist the sister church of FBC from their splinter many, many years ago?  Sometime before the Civil War it was a fully integrated church, but after the Civil War they split. FBC bought land near downtown and Bethel landed just north of them. I think they both originated on that former church site at Myrtle, Duval & Monroe that still has the cemetery in the middle.

[Ocklawaha]

I completely disagree. This cult…oops, I mean church... should not be allowed to park on our city park land and get away with it by picking up some trash every now and then. Bethel should be paying steep rent to park on all our land. And taxes, by the way, since we all know damn well Baptists use their churches as political brass knuckles, thrashing anyone who tries to defy their stranglehold of lies and stupidity. Remember separation of church and state? Separation of church and my goddamned parks!

Weren't these the same folks trying to rename our streets just a couple weeks ago?

Why don't you tell us how you really feel?  Separation of church and state is in our historical founding documents. In a country 237 years old, only in the last 50 years has this been interpreted as elimination of church from state. Thus the  references to God in the Declaration of Independence.

The first sentence not only mentions God, but it establishes our nation on the foundation of "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God." The second sentence also mentions God, asserting that "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Our city was only six years old when the mixed race congregation organized the Bethel Baptist Church in 1838. In 1840 they purchased property and formally incorporated the church under the laws of the territory of Florida in 1841, 4 years before statehood. The congregation moved into their new building in 1861, just in time for 'The War of Yankee Aggression.'    The Federal troops trashed the place and at the end of the war (under Federal Rule) the congregation was divided along racial lines.  A dispute over ownership was settled in the court with the Black congregation winning the day by force of numbers.  They then sold it to the White congregation which went on to incorporate the 'First Baptist Church.' Bethel's growing congregation led to the largest new church ever built in the South and opened by 'Colored' members.' The Great Jacksonville fire of 1901 wiped out the church and in 1904 the new (current) church opened. In short Bethel has been in Jacksonville long before there was anything along Hogans Creek but palmettos and pines. Bethel is a Jacksonville Treasure.

The hate spewed towards particular churches in our city is disturbing, but the ignorance exhibited by such bile is worse. The last time a major world religion suffered such hate the 'contemporary thinkers' were wearing brown shirts.

[duvaldude08]

I do agree though that Bethel's surrounding's should benefit more from it than it does. a perfect example is what the Potter's house has done on the westside. Bethel's surrounding's and neighborhood should benefit much more from the church than it does. That's my only stance on it.

[Mathew1056]

Bethel can get over it, just like I'm about over this forum. I offer thoughtful content on a pretty regular basis. Content that you as the provider get to exploit. If i'm going to take the time to write something, find an image, photoshop it, post it to imgur, just so i can post it to your forum, I would like my creative capacity intact. "Screw" was maybe a little harsh, but that was for me and the readers of my post to decide. You could have messaged me and asked me to change the name. I would have obliged. Instead I was treated like a troll.

I've always thought of this forum as an open conversation. If someone had a problem with anything I had wrote they could have told me. Instead my views were censored. I know there is a reason there are moderators, I don't feel that I crossed that line. If you are going to treat peoples topics like your own content than pay up.

Metro Jacksonville is not immune from the same thing going on at the T-U, worse maybe. It only takes a good format and the right contributors to challenge this site. The T-U will suffer from picking a niche market and sticking to it. Keeping forums open and treating people like they have brains is the best antidote for falling into the same trap.

@StevenDare, If you are going to pick one person to generalize a neighborhood maybe you should choose yourself.