Was Hart Expressway Messy Overkill?

[BackinJax05]

All this discussion of taking down these artificial barriers is upsetting Ed Ball. Can you stop please?

Another one of the good ol' boys. Thanx.

Forgot Tanzler, Godbold, and Austin(sort of). Mayors put in by the good ol'boys.

[Tacachale]

Sticking your head in the sand is an art form in this city.  If reasonable discussions about the possibilities of fixing inherent issues in our community anger you so much, why do you keep reading? 

Brilliant.

[Pinky]

I got a bright idea! Maybe I can intentionally bore yall out of far-fetched and ultra-tiresome redundant posts by making a 'Ramp' and 'SJTC parking' thread every single month; Unfortunately they still will get alot of comments...

I don't understand what you're so angry about..  Nobody is forcing you to read any of these threads, and so if a group of us wants to waste our time discussing ramps, or SJTC parking, or for that matter, the usefulness of having a sky, what's it to you?  You've contributed nothing to this topic besides your scorn for those who wish to discuss it.

[I-10east]

I'm not angry about anything, many of yall twenty or so 'visionaries' are angry because the ramp does exist. I'm just being a freaking realist and not a far-fetched visionary. Yall have no clue on what kind of freaking bureaucratic red tape it will take for changes to zoning, cost, etc, so I'm in the realistic camp. The land under the bridge isn't that significant concerning yardage anyway; It's like a narrow isthmus that's squeezed from Gator Bowl Blvd to WJCT and other buildings, so it's not like it will be a super huge land grab or something. So I'm not freaking angry about anything at all. I didn't even wanna take this thread this far, because I know how sensitive some of yall can be with these petty topics. So paint me as the off base unprofessional or whatever so please; Just becuase I'm outnumbered, I'm a big boy, I can handle it. IMO when the ramp gets worn to extreme deficiency, it will simply be repaired; Hopefully I can have that opinion without being 'angry' SMH.

[Ocklawaha]

Yall have no clue on what kind of freaking bureaucratic red tape it will take for changes to zoning, cost, etc, so I'm in the realistic camp. The land under the bridge isn't that significant concerning yardage anyway; It's like a narrow isthmus that's squeezed from Gator Bowl Blvd to WJCT and other buildings, so it's not like it will be a super huge land grab or something.

Let's see, without outing anyone, we've got at least 4-5 professional transportation planners, a couple of city planners, and at least another 4 people from the various city or transit agencies all discussing this and YOU ALONE think none of us have a clue?

Did you know, nearly 35 million people unwittingly drive over structurally deficient bridges every day in Los Angeles. In New York City, 296 people travel across a dangerous bridge every second. Roughly one of every three bridges in Pittsburgh, PA is “structurally deficient.” Guess what? Jacksonville has our share of dangerous bridges too.

Here's one:

Facts

Name:   SR-228 (HART BDG.) over ST. JOHNS RIVER
Structure number:   720107
Location:   US-A1 OVER ST.JOHNS RIVER
Purpose:   Carries highway over highway and waterway
Route classification:   Principal Arterial - Other Freeways or Expressways (Urban) [12]
Length of largest span:   1088.0 ft. [331.6 m]
Total length:   3844.3 ft. [1171.7 m]
Roadway width between curbs:   55.4 ft. [16.9 m]
Deck width edge-to-edge:   65.3 ft. [19.9 m]
Vertical clearance above deck:   18.4 ft. [5.6 m]
Vertical clearance below bridge:   140.8 ft. [42.9 m]
Owner:   State Highway Agency [01]
Year built:   1967
Historic significance:   Bridge is not eligible for the National Register of Historic Places [5]
Design load:   MS 18 / HS 20 [5]
Number of main spans:   3
Main spans material:   Steel continuous [4]
Main spans design:   Truss - Thru [10]
Deck type:   Concrete Cast-in-Place [1]

2010 Inspection

Average daily traffic:   43,000 [as of 2008]
Truck traffic:   14% of total traffic
Deck condition:   Fair [5 out of 9]
Superstructure condition:   Fair [5 out of 9]
Substructure condition:   Good [7 out of 9]
Channel protection:   Bank protection is in need of minor repairs. River control devices and embankment protection have a little minor damage. Banks and/or channel have minor amounts of drift. [7]
Pier/abutment protection:   In place but in a deteriorated condition [3]
Scour condition:   Bridge with "unknown" foundation that has not been evaluated for scour.
Operating rating:   40.9 tons [37.2 metric tons]
Inventory rating:   23.3 tons [21.2 metric tons]
Sufficiency rating:   43.8
Recommended work:   Other structural work, including hydraulic replacements. [38]
Estimated cost of work:   $255,000

For your entertainment, compare this with the Overland.

Facts

Name:   I-95 (SR-9) over HENDRICKS/KINGS/MONTANA
Structure number:   720153
Location:   I-95/HEND./KINGS/MONTANA
Purpose:   Carries highway over highway
Route classification:   Principal Arterial - Interstate (Urban) [11]
Length of largest span:   123.0 ft. [37.5 m]
Total length:   1407.2 ft. [428.9 m]
Roadway width between curbs:   146.0 ft. [44.5 m]
Deck width edge-to-edge:   149.9 ft. [45.7 m]
Vertical clearance above deck:   18.7 ft. [5.7 m]
Vertical clearance below bridge:   14.1 ft. [4.3 m]
Skew angle:   99°
Owner:   State Highway Agency [01]
Year built:   1959
Year reconstructed:   1989
Historic significance:   Bridge is not eligible for the National Register of Historic Places [5]
Design load:   MS 18 / HS 20 [5]
Main span material:   Steel [3]
Main span design:   Girder and floorbeam system [03]
Deck type:   Concrete Cast-in-Place [1]
2010 Inspection

Status:   Open, no restriction [A]
Average daily traffic:   172,000 [as of 2008]
Truck traffic:   8% of total traffic
Deck condition:   Poor [4 out of 9]
Superstructure condition:   Fair [5 out of 9]
Substructure condition:   Satisfactory [6 out of 9]
Scour condition:   Bridge not over waterway. [N]
Operating rating:   55.9 tons [50.8 metric tons]
Inventory rating:   33.9 tons [30.8 metric tons]
Evaluation:   Structurally deficient [1]

I just wish you would have shared with us that your a comedian before now. 

[I-10east]

Good info Ock. I already said earlier that the US has tons of crumbling road infrastructure everywhere. That was a 2010 Hart Bridge inspection, so was that the most up-to-date inspection? Because if I'm not mistaken, the bridge has already had work on it since 2010, or maybe that was just the green steel superstructure area at the top. What's the latest final evaluation of the Hart (example, like SR-9 over Hendricks was/is structurally deficient)? Under 300K to fix a large scale bridge like the Hart (in 2010) doesn't sound like an overly enormous amount of money to me, to justify tearing any part of it down. 

[I-10east]

It doesnt take a professional to have a reasonable conversation,  But your conversation sounds like a yowling football argument rather than a discussion.  just saying.

Anyone who disagrees with you while even freaking speaking to YOU cordially (like I have earlier) is a yowling outta control maniac, gotcha Stephen, Jesus...

[I-10east]

Sticking your head in the sand is an art form in this city.  If reasonable discussions about the possibilities of fixing inherent issues in our community anger you so much, why do you keep reading? 

Brilliant.

I think that you meant to say dull.

[I-10east]

Your knee jerk reaction to virtually any constructive conversation is consistently over the top.

So I'm the 'knee-jerker' that wanna build a new DT condo skyline on a narrow piece of land with very low acreage between Gator Bowl Blvd and Met Park/WJCT, hilarious. I'm not 'jerking' anywhere, I'm just saying that the ramp isn't going anywhere. How I'm I a knee-jerker? Sounds like you got the backwards. I guess that yall just totally forgot about all of that land in the Shipyards area and all of the other tons of DT land available, nope freaking keep going east to freaking DOT territory on a meager stretch of land squeezed between a road and businesses voila, makes perfect sense!!! But I'm the knee jerker here...

Keep the blitzkrieg of comments coming guys, I'm really enjoying this salvo of artillery that I'm defending off. Believe me, I wish this thread title (also SJTC parking) was in an abyss of hell never to be seen again, but if yall wanna continue the ramp chatter, I'll be happy to continue it. It's not like I don't have tons of spare time. Later friends.

[Ocklawaha]

Good info Ock. I already said earlier that the US has tons of crumbling road infrastructure everywhere. That was a 2010 Hart Bridge inspection, so was that the most up-to-date inspection? Because if I'm not mistaken, the bridge has already had work on it since 2010, or maybe that was just the green steel superstructure area at the top. What's the latest final evaluation of the Hart (example, like SR-9 over Hendricks was/is structurally deficient)? Under 300K to fix a large scale bridge like the Hart (in 2010) doesn't sound like an overly enormous amount of money to me, to justify tearing any part of it down.

Yes it was a 2010 inspection which is the most recent date with published scores. The Adams/Parker street ramps are also in a deteriorated condition. The worst part is that the Hart Bridge has NOT been inspected for scour and thus the entire foundation is in 'unknown' condition, we could literally have an ugly catastrophe right under our noses and not know it. The bridges need a complete inspection and as repair to the long ramps start to mount, we could save a bundle by simply taking that part of the roadway down. The need for these ramps has largely dried up, their carried 77,600 vehicles a day in 2000 and only 43,000 by 2010 putting it on par with Roosevelt Boulevard @ Fishweir Creek.

[Tacachale]

Here's a thought, how about we stop letting I-10 derail otherwise informative discussions?

[I-10east]

I was wrong and many like Ock, Lake, and tons of others are right concerning the Hart Bridge Expressway. I guess that I was indeed 'derailing informative discussion' like Taca said 4 years ago, burn. It looks like the city, the Jags etc are on board with tearing down the ramp, so I'm just eating some crow. It's most likely gonna take quite awhile for the actual demo though. 

[Jason]

I was wrong and many like Ock, Lake, and tons of others are right concerning the Hart Bridge Expressway. I guess that I was indeed 'derailing informative discussion' like Taca said 4 years ago, burn. It looks like the city, the Jags etc are on board with tearing down the ramp, so I'm just eating some crow. It's most likely gonna take quite awhile for the actual demo though. 

I-10east, you are just another shining example of what I love about this forum.  And thank you for your continued involvement over the years!  I think most of us here have had our own plate (or two) of crow, but that is what makes us human.  And the fact that you dug up a 3 year old thread just to state that you were eating that crow says a lot about your character.  Kudos to you and all of the other wonderful members here that aren't shy to voice their feelings, debate respectfully, AND sometimes share a bite of the dirty bird.


Back to topic:  I agree that we likely won't see that highway come down for quite some time, although it will be a glorious day when it does!

[Steve]

I was wrong and many like Ock, Lake, and tons of others are right concerning the Hart Bridge Expressway. I guess that I was indeed 'derailing informative discussion' like Taca said 4 years ago, burn. It looks like the city, the Jags etc are on board with tearing down the ramp, so I'm just eating some crow. It's most likely gonna take quite awhile for the actual demo though. 

Dude, if I searched 10 years of posts I'm sure you'll find 1-2 things I was wrong about. No more than that though:)