Was Hart Expressway Messy Overkill?

[spuwho]

All this discussion of taking down these artificial barriers is upsetting Ed Ball. Can you stop please?

[YellowBluffRoad]

I've seen it mentioned on this site somewhere that on south southbank side of the hart expressway, the expressway was supposed to continue on down to southside. Does anyone know what the original plan was or have a picture?

I don't have pictures or schematics, but I do recall that in the late 80s, there was still residual speculation in communities near Parental Home Road and Hogan that the expressway extension could still be extended down Hogan Road to Southside Blvd. I vaguely recall a high amount of confusion and rumour regarding whether the terminus at Southside was intended to be at Hogan and Southside or if it was to be located further north and cut through the Pottsburg Park housing project to the west of the Pottsburg post office on Southside Blvd.

[spuwho]

Highlights from a meeting held in 1962:

• At the meeting of the Jacksonville Exchange Club in the George Washington Hotel, County Commissioner Bob Harris called the proposed Commodore’s Point Bridge “a $39 million monstrosity” and said he was “violently opposed” to threats made against an elected board.

Harris told the club the Jacksonville Expressway Authority, which had proposed a bridge over the St. Johns River at Commodore’s Point, had threatened to increase tolls on three existing bridges on the Expressway unless the commission renewed its pledge to earmark gasoline tax money for an additional bond issue.

“If this is done, it will be 10 years before we get any tax money for secondary roads,” said Harris.

He said that from 1960 until 1961, the gasoline tax revenue pledged for the recently completed Expressway system had been held in escrow.

“We are just starting to get that money and I don’t want it to stop. We need it to repair roads all over Duval County and to buy rights of way for primary roads,” Harris said.

In addition, he said that toll revenues were down on the Mathews, Fuller Warren and Trout River bridges while traffic on the toll-free bridges was increasing.

“If the Commodore’s Point Bridge is built, it will have to have steady, 24-hour traffic in order to bring in enough tolls to pay for itself,” said Harris.

[I-10east]

I really enjoy the continued futile talk of this 'controversial' ramp that was built many many years ago; It still will be here whenever we all past on anyway, if you can't beat it, accept it is my motto. Call me crazy, but I enjoy the DT bound trip over the ramp passing Everbank Field.

[thelakelander]

We don't build things to last.  Like the I-95 Overland Bridge, eventually it will become deficient enough that it will either need to be torn down or hundreds of millions spent on building a new replacement.  I suspect, when that time comes, it won't be rebuilt in its current configuration.

[acme54321]

We don't build things to last.  Like the I-95 Overland Bridge, eventually it will become deficient enough that it will either need to be torn down or hundreds of millions spent on building a new replacement.  I suspect, when that time comes, it won't be rebuilt in its current configuration.

Especially condidering the amount of traffic it gets.

I like driving on it too, it's like a race track haha.  When it becomes deficient though I am 100% for removing it and transitioning that traffic to bay street.  The only elevated portion I would still be ok with is the part from the MLK parkway to the bridge.

[I-10east]

I'm not holding my breath for that overpass to become dangerously 'deficient' anytime soon. It's in tip-top shape compared to many of the highways throughout this country that I've driven. Remember this is the USA a country that's well known to hold on to most old road infrastructure.

[thelakelander]

Give it 10 to 20 years.

[fieldafm]

I've seen it mentioned on this site somewhere that on south southbank side of the hart expressway, the expressway was supposed to continue on down to southside. Does anyone know what the original plan was or have a picture?

Yes, the Hart Expressway was originally supposed to link to JTB.  Men of influence realized this would not be in line with their financial interests and 'suggested' the expressway terminate at Parental Home... Thereby changing the financial fortunes of rival land speculators and preserving their own. 

Jim Crooks has a lot of research on this.  He also co-produced a program with Jax Historical Society through WJCT.  I think you can watch it online. 

[cline]

For those of you who might be bored, you can look at the Traffic and Economic Impact study of the Hart bridge that was done in 1962.  It is part of the special collections library at UNF.  It is under the Arthur Sollee collection.  There's actually a lot of good transportation related stuff in there.

http://www.unf.edu/library/specialcollections/manuscripts/containers/Arthur_N__Sollee_Papers_Container.aspx

[I-10east]

The southbound Hart Bridge side has only one lane without the ramp; Where is the other lane gonna come from to form two lanes? That ramp IS a part of the Hart Bridge, if the ramp comes down, than so does the entire bridge which won't happen.

[thelakelander]

Are you saying you think it's impossible to bring the expressway down to grade without tearing down the bridge over the river?

[I-10east]

^^^Oh, so tear down some road, and add some also that surely makes sense. Yall keep dreaming of the waterfront condos that will soon replace that ramp. Try visiting cities in the Northeast to know what's deficient. 

[I-10east]

It's really funny, the Hart Bridge itself is in decent shape, but the ramp oh no, it's supposedly a crumbling Roman ruin that's apparently on it's last legs, haha yall crack me up. I get that many don't like the ramp, but lets get real here.

[fieldafm]

^^^Oh, so tear down some road, and add some also that surely makes sense. Yall keep dreaming of the waterfront condos that will soon replace that ramp. Try visiting cities in the Northeast to know what's deficient.

It hasn't worked for over a dozen cities of our same size, so you're probably right.

Sticking your head in the sand is an art form in this city.  If reasonable discussions about the possibilities of fixing inherent issues in our community anger you so much, why do you keep reading? 

You do realize that elevated concrete roadways, just like aircraft carriers and processed foods have useful life spans.  The Overland Bridge isn't being reconstructed just because our engineers don't know what they are doing.  The Hart Expressway ramps will probably reach the end if their useful life spans within the next decade.  It doesn't hurt to start having the conversation well enough in advance to research and debate viable solutions.