Understanding Transit in Jacksonville

[thelakelander]

Mr.Mann, could you tell us all more about what uses (modes) a new crossing may serve at the south end of Liberty crossing to Kings Ave.?
Would a new span touch down on the south bank between the surface lot between the curve in Riverplace Blvd and the Chart House?

Seems NOTHING would have to be demolished!
Even a ferry transporting a heritage Streetcar could be wonderful!

Tell us all more here now won't you please?

This bridge MIGHT have happened had the building boom roared on for another 5 years or so. A 70 floor skyscraper on the north along with The Shipyards would have provided critical mass. As TUFSU1 as said, the bridge won't happen, at least not for a long, long, time.

Another downtown bridge would not have happened even if we had Miami's downtown boom.  Such a project wasn't a part of the 20 year long range transportation plan, meaning it would have not been eligible for federal funding, and there's no critical need for it.

[ricker]

The mapped plan in the full article shown with color coded legend indicating the different modes, transit stations, stops and hubs, etc.:  is this final?

Where could it be possible to find a little deeper detail regarding specific geographic placement of the stations to be constructed?  The circles depicted lead a few potentially exciting questions to the fore.

Clearly recognizable is the evident great deal of thought and time put into carefully routing the mix of these differing modes of desperately needed transportation, which is emblematic of a rigorous volley between community stakeholders heavily involved, I just wonder how much flexibility exists before shovels turn.

[ricker]

Also, sorry if it is too unrelated..

Is it at all even a remote a possibility at this point that the "First Coast Outer Beltway" be more useful of it involved the construction of a new river crossing north of and in addition to the Shands bridge? 

[thelakelander]

Ock,

Do you know of an old RR river crossing that went from the old FEC spur on the southbank (adjacent to the JEA site) and crossed the river connecting to where the old tracks were around the Maxwell House plant?

No.  There was never a railroad bridge there.  Little Brother's Fertilizer & Phosphate Company was there in 1903 and after that, it was the location of Gibbs Shipbuilding Corporation for several decades.

[thelakelander]

The mapped plan in the full article shown with color coded legend indicating the different modes, transit stations, stops and hubs, etc.:  is this final?

Where could it be possible to find a little deeper detail regarding specific geographic placement of the stations to be constructed?  The circles depicted lead a few potentially exciting questions to the fore.

Clearly recognizable is the evident great deal of thought and time put into carefully routing the mix of these differing modes of desperately needed transportation, which is emblematic of a rigorous volley between community stakeholders heavily involved, I just wonder how much flexibility exists before shovels turn.

Some of the BRT corridors, such as the Downtown phase , will be breaking ground in 2013.  All of the rail corridors still have to undergo additional studies that will involve heavy community input and participation, so they aren't locked in stone.

[thelakelander]

Also, sorry if it is too unrelated..

Is it at all even a remote a possibility at this point that the "First Coast Outer Beltway" be more useful of it involved the construction of a new river crossing north of and in addition to the Shands bridge? 

If the FCOB involved a river crossing halfway between the Shands and Buckman Bridges, it would have a much more significant impact on traffic congestion in Mandarin and Northern Clay County.  However, the possibility of that happening has already passed by.  FDOT is now preparing to spend millions of your tax dollars on purchasing ROW for the future extension of the FCOB between Blanding and I-95.

[Charles Hunter]

In addition, the North Florida TPO is about to kick off an update to the 2035 Long Range Transportation Plan referenced earlier - looking out to 2040.  They will have to consider changes in population, the economy, etc., so some of those lines on the map may change.
Link to website: http://www.northfloridatpo.com/transportation_planning/long_range_transportation_plan/
Looks like all they have on 2040 is a place to sign up for updates.

[Ocklawaha]

Mr.Mann, could you tell us all more about what uses (modes) a new crossing may serve at the south end of Liberty crossing to Kings Ave.?
Would a new span touch down on the south bank between the surface lot between the curve in Riverplace Blvd and the Chart House?

Seems NOTHING would have to be demolished!
Even a ferry transporting a heritage Streetcar could be wonderful!

Tell us all more here now won't you please?

This bridge MIGHT have happened had the building boom roared on for another 5 years or so. A 70 floor skyscraper on the north along with The Shipyards would have provided critical mass. As TUFSU1 as said, the bridge won't happen, at least not for a long, long, time.

Another downtown bridge would not have happened even if we had Miami's downtown boom.  Such a project wasn't a part of the 20 year long range transportation plan, meaning it would have not been eligible for federal funding, and there's no critical need for it.

Like I said Lake, MIGHT! I figure that if we would have had that much going on (recall the cable car proposal) somebody with bucks might have advanced such an idea. Their justification would have been to plug the new high rises into the more affluent (read that WHITE) neighborhoods just across the puddle.

HERE IS SOME HISTORY ON THE RAILROADS AND FERRY OPERATIONS:

The north bank trackage was a spaghetti mix of 'St Johns River Terminal Railroad' (Southern Railway system) and Seaboard Air Line Railroad, (former 'Fernandina and Jacksonville Railway'). Maxwell House, Jacksonville Shipyards and 'St. Johns River Ship Building, were sprawled along the waterfront. The Atlantic Coast Line accessed the area from Commodore Point and very early on, the city owned the Municipal Docks and Terminal Railroad (Todays Talleyrand Terminal Company).

There was once a ferry connecting the downtown area with the 'Jacksonville, Mayport and Pablo Beach Railroad over in Arlington, (a standard gauge railroad) but there isn't any evidence that they carried rail cars. The ferry ran from a dock at the foot of Newnan Street to a dock in Arlington (near Jones College). The fact that the company's founder died in 1889 and John Stockton 'managed the properties' for his widow until 1892, begs the question, WHY wasn't this converted to an electric interurban road especially since Stockton would be so active in the electric railway business. This right-of-way might have been in the imaginations of the Jacksonville Seashore and Suburban Railway Company, when they proposed such a route, but nothing ever came of this project. Lastly the JM&P was extended under new ownership in 1893 across the Arlington River and Little Pottsburg Creek to the South Jacksonville Railroad yards (JEA site south to about Landon Avenue) and though this railroad was standard gauge, it only lasted 'officially' for two more years. Unofficially the railroad was used for US Mail delivery, via handcar, for several more years.

Another ferry was operated by the Jacksonville, St. Augustine and Halifax River Railway,  but again there was no regular car interchange, nor could there be one, the lines south of the river were narrow gauge.

The Jacksonville and Atlantic Railroad ran from the waterfront on the south bank to Pablo Beach (Jacksonville Beach) via what is today, Beach Boulevard. The J&A was also a (3' foot) narrow gauge railroad. When Flagler got control of the Jacksonville, St Augustine and Halifax River Railroad in December of 1885, he immediately converted it to standard gauge and by 1889 they were bridging the river downtown. In 1899 Flagler bought the last narrow gauge line and started out converting the Jacksonville and Atlantic to standard gauge.

The Former Merrill Stevens Shipyard in the south side was served by the carriers on that side of the river. The yard at the JEA site was also used sorting the large coal shipments that came into the FEC RY's coal terminals at Mayport. Today's Overland Bridge is deteriorated due to 'carbonization of the concrete,' gee, wonder why?

[thelakelander]

Like I said Lake, MIGHT! I figure that if we would have had that much going on (recall the cable car proposal) somebody with bucks might have advanced such an idea. Their justification would have been to plug the new high rises into the more affluent (read that WHITE) neighborhoods just across the puddle.

It wouldn't have even been a MIGHT. The only way to justify a billion dollar bridge/interchange would be for it to serve as a regional wide solution dealing with traffic gridlock and since we've built so many limited access roads (more than most cities our size have), the gridlock just isn't there to justify the expense.  Even the combined 2000s downtown growth of Houston, Atlanta, Miami, and Las Vegas wouldn't have packed enough people in the Northbank to change that.  However, it would have made our mass transit discussions a little more serious.

[Ocklawaha]

Of course it's all speculation and 'water under the bridge,' today, but I never thought of a bridge at that location as another freeway. Are we not the only city in the world with 7 major bridges and every damn one of them is part of a freeway or a freeway link? I always thought if they ever did lay in a Liberty Street Bridge, it should be a 6 lane version of the Grand Avenue Bridge or Bridge of the Lions, with a high vertical clearance. Oh well, they never asked me to design it anyway which is probably a good thing... can we build a 6 track streetcar bridge? LOL! 

[thelakelander]

I wasn't considering it a freeway but it would have to be a decent height (probably vertical clearance similar to the Hart Bridge) and tie into the Overland Bridge, so you're looking at an elevated limited access road between I-95 and the Northbank (like the Acosta).  At that point, we're looking at spending big bucks for something models indicate isn't needed to improve traffic flow.

[Ocklawaha]

Anything like that would have to go before the Coast Guard and the Port Authority, if they required a 65' clearance as the Acosta and Buckman have, it could actually be done, but if they wanted 138 feet like the Main Street Bridge, then there is no way.

I tend to agree with previous posters that we do need an additional river crossing, but it could be a 4-6 lane replacement of the Shands. Be nice if it were located around Greenbriar - Flemming Island Parkway, perhaps Charles Hunter thinks we might have another shot at that idea.

Whatever they do with a new crossing, if it's not at the Shands, they should open the new bridge, close the Shand's and rebuild it with emergency lanes and an additional 20' of clearance.

[thelakelander]

Anything like that would have to go before the Coast Guard and the Port Authority, if they required a 65' clearance as the Acosta and Buckman have, it could actually be done, but if they wanted 138 feet like the Main Street Bridge, then there is no way.

Anything lower than the Main Street Bridge would kill off the potential of large ships accessing the Hyatt and half of the Shipyards site.  Eliminating that potential would be a negative for downtown, imo.

I tend to agree with previous posters that we do need an additional river crossing, but it could be a 4-6 lane replacement of the Shands. Be nice if it were located around Greenbriar - Flemming Island Parkway, perhaps Charles Hunter thinks we might have another shot at that idea.

Whatever they do with a new crossing, if it's not at the Shands, they should open the new bridge, close the Shand's and rebuild it with emergency lanes and an additional 20' of clearance.

I don't believe a replacement of the Shands Bridge will have any significant impact on Blanding, US 17, and SR 13 traffic patterns.  With that said, I do believe the FCOB plan calls for replacing the Shands with a multi-lane structure that will include extra clearance.

[Charles Hunter]

I tend to agree with previous posters that we do need an additional river crossing, but it could be a 4-6 lane replacement of the Shands. Be nice if it were located around Greenbriar - Flemming Island Parkway, perhaps Charles Hunter thinks we might have another shot at that idea.

Whatever they do with a new crossing, if it's not at the Shands, they should open the new bridge, close the Shand's and rebuild it with emergency lanes and an additional 20' of clearance.

I don't believe a replacement of the Shands Bridge will have any significant impact on Blanding, US 17, and SR 13 traffic patterns.  With that said, I do believe the FCOB plan calls for replacing the Shands with a multi-lane structure that will include extra clearance.

What  'lake' said.  I think it will be the last bridge built across the lower St. Johns for quite some time - certainly my lifetime.  A rendering from the DOT's river crossing website (I can't seem to imbed the picture here).  Looks like 6 lanes, plus shoulders, plus provisions for bicycles/pedestrians on one side.

[thelakelander]