Understanding Transit in Jacksonville

[Ocklawaha]

Guess we're just too damn helpful Lake! LOL!   

[BackinJax05]

Mr.Mann, could you tell us all more about what uses (modes) a new crossing may serve at the south end of Liberty crossing to Kings Ave.?
Would a new span touch down on the south bank between the surface lot between the curve in Riverplace Blvd and the Chart House?

Seems NOTHING would have to be demolished!
Even a ferry transporting a heritage Streetcar could be wonderful!

Tell us all more here now won't you please?

This bridge MIGHT have happened had the building boom roared on for another 5 years or so. A 70 floor skyscraper on the north along with The Shipyards would have provided critical mass. As TUFSU1 as said, the bridge won't happen, at least not for a long, long, time.

Another downtown bridge would not have happened even if we had Miami's downtown boom.  Such a project wasn't a part of the 20 year long range transportation plan, meaning it would have not been eligible for federal funding, and there's no critical need for it.

Like I said Lake, MIGHT! I figure that if we would have had that much going on (recall the cable car proposal) somebody with bucks might have advanced such an idea. Their justification would have been to plug the new high rises into the more affluent (read that WHITE) neighborhoods just across the puddle.

HERE IS SOME HISTORY ON THE RAILROADS AND FERRY OPERATIONS:

The north bank trackage was a spaghetti mix of 'St Johns River Terminal Railroad' (Southern Railway system) and Seaboard Air Line Railroad, (former 'Fernandina and Jacksonville Railway'). Maxwell House, Jacksonville Shipyards and 'St. Johns River Ship Building, were sprawled along the waterfront. The Atlantic Coast Line accessed the area from Commodore Point and very early on, the city owned the Municipal Docks and Terminal Railroad (Todays Talleyrand Terminal Company).

There was once a ferry connecting the downtown area with the 'Jacksonville, Mayport and Pablo Beach Railroad over in Arlington, (a standard gauge railroad) but there isn't any evidence that they carried rail cars. The ferry ran from a dock at the foot of Newnan Street to a dock in Arlington (near Jones College). The fact that the company's founder died in 1889 and John Stockton 'managed the properties' for his widow until 1892, begs the question, WHY wasn't this converted to an electric interurban road especially since Stockton would be so active in the electric railway business. This right-of-way might have been in the imaginations of the Jacksonville Seashore and Suburban Railway Company, when they proposed such a route, but nothing ever came of this project. Lastly the JM&P was extended under new ownership in 1893 across the Arlington River and Little Pottsburg Creek to the South Jacksonville Railroad yards (JEA site south to about Landon Avenue) and though this railroad was standard gauge, it only lasted 'officially' for two more years. Unofficially the railroad was used for US Mail delivery, via handcar, for several more years.

Another ferry was operated by the Jacksonville, St. Augustine and Halifax River Railway,  but again there was no regular car interchange, nor could there be one, the lines south of the river were narrow gauge.

The Jacksonville and Atlantic Railroad ran from the waterfront on the south bank to Pablo Beach (Jacksonville Beach) via what is today, Beach Boulevard. The J&A was also a (3' foot) narrow gauge railroad. When Flagler got control of the Jacksonville, St Augustine and Halifax River Railroad in December of 1885, he immediately converted it to standard gauge and by 1889 they were bridging the river downtown. In 1899 Flagler bought the last narrow gauge line and started out converting the Jacksonville and Atlantic to standard gauge.

The Former Merrill Stevens Shipyard in the south side was served by the carriers on that side of the river. The yard at the JEA site was also used sorting the large coal shipments that came into the FEC RY's coal terminals at Mayport. Today's Overland Bridge is deteriorated due to 'carbonization of the concrete,' gee, wonder why?

THANK YOU, OCK!!

I've been looking for a map of the JM&P for a long time. Do you have, or know where I could find, an overlay map? (Showing Arlington today, with the former JM&P line drawn over it)

Thanks again!

PS: I read somewhere the Jacksonville Mayport & Pablo was nicknamed "Jump Men & Push", because their locomotives were known to break down often.

[Ocklawaha]

The moniker "Jump Men and Push" is typical in the railroad industry, EVERY railroad has it's nicknames among the employees.

Bridgeton and Saco River - B&SR = "Busted and Still Running"

Live Oak Perry & Gulf - LOP&G = "Lopin' Gopher"

Norfolk Southern - NS = "Nellie Sue"

Norfolk & Western - N&W = "Nights and Weekends"

Burlington Northern Santa Fe - BNSF = "Buy Norfolk Southern First"

Union Pacific - UP = Uncle Pete

Sumpter Valley Railroad (Mormon owned Oregon Railroad) - SV = "Polygamy Central"

CSX - CSX = "Chicken Shit eXpress"

Hoosac Tunnel & Wilmington - HT&W = "Hoot Toot and Whistle"

Missouri-Kansas-Texas - MKT = "Katy"

Missouri Pacific - MP = "The Mop"

New York, Ontario and Western Railway - NO&W = "Old and Weary"

White Pass & Yukon - WP&Y = "Wait Plenty and You'll Ride"

Tavares & Gulf - T&G = "Tug and Grunt"

So this was not/is not uncommon, the truth is the very first train left Jacksonville and made the trip to the beaches flawlessly, on the return trip we are told 'the locomotive broke down'. This was a picnic excursion by 'The Knights of Pythias,' and their families. The men apparently uncoupled a passenger coach and with the women in children inside, pushed it back to the ferry landing in Arlington. Now this story presents a logistical problem, since switches are expensive, most of these early roads had very few. If the locomotive was in front of the train how did they get the passenger car around it?  Was the locomotive movable, but barely, so it crept to a siding where the swap could take place? What was the nature of the failure? Letting a fire die and watching the steam pressure tank is a sure fire way to spend 45 more minutes in the woods burning pine knots... if you can get to a supply of pine knots. If they had no turning facilities at the beach then they might have backed up the entire way back to Arlington which WOULD have put the coaches on the Jacksonville side of the engine. 

In any case, the fuel was in the fire and JM&P would = "JUMP MEN AND PUSH" for the rest of time.