The Jacksonville Landing: Catch All Discussion

[Mathew1056]

My vision for the Landing starts with the history of this city. Beside the silhouettes of former important city figures hanging the food court, there is not a lot of cultural references in what some consider the epicenter of downtown. Where do you see Klutho's influences? Didn't thousands of ships dock in the exact location of "The Landing"? The building itself could be built anywhere in suburbia and it would be just another strip mall. What makes the Landing such an enticing property is its central location with a theme package included. There is no need to ask Disney to help develop a master plan. The better option lies in the history books. It's as easy as the property embracing its wharf like charm. The Landing should be a destination location. Parking is not the issue. The 1980's threw-up on the Jacksonville riverfront, deal with it.

[tufsu1]

umm...there is a martitime museum at the Landing....does that not speak of our history?

[Ocklawaha]

I believe Mathew1056 is referring to the overall architecture, historical markers and a construction that would put one back in the day with wharf like themes, tin roofs, etc.  Think of it as a super sized Crawldaddy's.

A mini 'small ship cruise' port that doubles as a marine welcome station and Visit Jacksonville office wouldn't hurt either. Many probably have no idea that we are on a regular rotation for small ship cruises and currently the only thing to welcome them is a concrete Riverwalk slab between the Main Street Bridge and the Hyatt.

I'm still interested in placing life size bronze's of famous Jaxson's and those who otherwise called Jacksonville Home. Imagine having a life size Oliver (Babe) Hardy, Ray Charles or Creature From The Black Lagoon, scattered in little clusters all along the Riverwalks.

[thelakelander]

I believe you have to pay to enter the maritime museum now but I get the point of view where Mathew1056 and Simms are coming from.  The Landing's days as a festival marketplace with national chains that were unique to Jacksonville are over.  However, there is a lot of opportunity to be had by integrating the structure and theme to better utilize the area's strengths, which include its waterfront setting, downtown location, site history, and innovation & creativity of Jax's residents.  Figuring out its future role in the downtown environment should be one of the highest priorities on the DIA's list, imo.

St. Johns Pass is basically a tourist trap now but the architecture still passes off the theme as a fishing village.



However, probably the most exciting thing to me was it's still a working waterfront.



When looking at the Landing, the Shipyards and the rest of the downtown waterfront, it seems there are a ton of local organic opportunities that we can take advantage of.

[Ocklawaha]

Yes Lake, the Johns Pass theme is what I believe they should be looking for also.


Crawldaddy's was a pretty spot on reconstruction of the old wharves.



Above and Below, River Grille on the Tomoka River in Ormond Beach is another place that nailed the theme as an old port.

[vicupstate]

simms3, Planet Fitness has locations all over that are $10 a month, with a $29 annual fee.  I don't belong to one, but they are opening up in lots of cities. They are mostly cardio and machines, no much free weights.   

[tufsu1]

I lived in the Tampa Bay area for over 6 years...and went to Johns Pass twice

[thelakelander]

I grew up in Central Florida and went back for a couple of years after college and went there only once the entire time.  Heck, Downtown Disney is only 20 minutes away from my parents house and I've been there less than five times total.  However, someone is going there and as long as it's a working waterfront, it provides an economic stimulant that's not tourist or retail based.  I believe we need to view our downtown the same way.  While many believe a successful downtown means lots of retail, restaurants, and clubs, a truly organic and self sustainable urban core needs a well rounded economic base. So there's a still a value in having a Maxwell House, North Florida Shipyards, marinas, seafood markets, and even simply allowing residents to fish from a pier or riverwalk, where feasible.

[Mathew1056]

I think hiding our economic attachment to the water behind a facade is missing a huge opportunity. What better message to leave in a travelers head that we have a bustling, dense, diverse economy, water based economy As far as the architecture, I think just as Miami has Art Deco Jacksonville has Prairie School. If the point is to be marketable attaching an architectural movement with a city is a good way of creating a positive image. I think there are plenty of modern designs that could be expressed through Prairie style. Call it Neo-Prairie or Modern Prairie. We need to create a stronger city culture.

[simms3]

Well, I see we're all kind of on the same page.  I am afraid of anything too hoakie and I don't think it would be feasible to make too many structural changes to the Landing (i.e. turning it into a wooden looking structure that is akin to Crawdaddy's).  I don't think the Landing needs to be "themed", per se, just a host to all of the best business owners of Jax under one roof and a cooler, more authentic feel that doesn't scream 80s Rouse development.  Glossed wood floors in the interior, better pain job, lots of money for tenant buildouts so that each space has a unique feel to it, selectivity with vendors and tenants, street presence and perhaps an opening to Laura St, etc etc.

The big difference as I see it as to where the Landing should go is that now it screams "shopping center" and it should scream "collective" or "market".  It shouldn't feel "corporate", but more authentic and varied.  There shouldn't be the obvious presence of a "Landlord".

I work on a shopping center that had a CA crafstman appearance, so the whole center looked like it was one entity.  What we have done is reverse that and encourage all shops, especially local ones, to come up with their own look and feel so long as it fits the guidelines and our standards...and we help out with TI packages with an emphasis on exterior improvements so they can be distinguished from their neighbors.

In Chelsea Market the vendor and tenant spaces are nothing too special, but the corridors and the overall feel of the common areas are amazing and what draws so many to the market (well that and all of the vendors are the best in their business in NYC, under one roof).

Landing should be a culture generator and small business incubator.  What's amazing about Atlanta even compared to "cultured" cities such as Saint Louis is that local businesses have gained such a huge following...it's a city that has led the nation's "go local" movement.  King of Pops, Sublime Donuts, Dancing Goats Coffee, Spotted Trotter meats, Mark Edge jewelry, etc etc.  The point of Ponce City Market will be to provide patrons the opportunity to experience all of the best local brands/businesses under one roof.

[tufsu1]

While id like to see the landing opened to the water, it is the only building blocking a street view of the river in downtown...so we're hardly hiding our waterfront

[thelakelander]

The big difference as I see it as to where the Landing should go is that now it screams "shopping center" and it should scream "collective" or "market".  It shouldn't feel "corporate", but more authentic and varied.  There shouldn't be the obvious presence of a "Landlord".

I've always felt the Landing screams 1980s failed festival marketplace, moreso than a traditional shopping center.  I still view as more as a failed Faneuil Hall than a SJTC or Avenues Mall.  However, I agree with the "market" concept.  I'm not familiar with what Ponce City Market is supposed to be but it sounds like you're describing what would basically be a public market.  I'm not sure about what Toney Sleiman will do with the Landing but that's essentially what BSF wants to do with the farmer's market expansion on Beaver Street.

Milwaukee's Public Market

While id like to see the landing opened to the water, it is the only building blocking a street view of the river in downtown...so we're hardly hiding our waterfront

I don't think it needs an architectural makeover to be successful.  However, I do believe the opening of the courtyard and Landing will be better for the long term success of Laura Street and the Northbank because of the resulting visual connectivity.  Right now, we have a "public square" that has replaced Hemming in importance that's sealed off from the rest of downtown.  I believe exposing our existing uses to the street (I include the Landing in this) will do more in the short term for downtown vibrancy and foot traffic than anything else.

[Mathew1056]

I think that opening up the courtyard is the biggest structural improvement that can be made. As far as the facade of the Landing itself, Neglecting it would be there best option at this point. It would not cost them a lot of money to add some metal sheeting in some places. I'm not calling on cheesy Disney style experience, but a tasteful blend of many elements that already inhabit this city. The Landing is ground zero for creating a walkable district downtown. Sleiman needs to put up or back out. The property is a timecapsule  of a different development philosophy. It has not improved in the least in the past few years.

[Bativac]

My wife and I were in the Milwaukee Public Market last week, a side trip from scoping out apartments in the Chicago area. For a cold weekend in December, it was pretty vibrant. Not packed but definitely busy. My wife commented that she wished the Landing was more like that and less like a downtown mall.

[Ocklawaha]

I've always felt the Landing screams 1980s failed festival marketplace, moreso than a traditional shopping center.  I still view as more as a failed Faneuil Hall than a SJTC or Avenues Mall. 

Funny that you say that Lake, the Chamber of Commerce and City Government under Jake Godbold went to two places from Jacksonville via Piedmont Airlines: Faneuil Hall and Inner Harbor.  Faneuil Hall was the model they brought back and the reason The Landing was ultimately built the way it was.