A Closer Look At 220 Riverside

[downtownjag]

Ehhh I really don't want a Walmart there at all, even a neighborhood concept. I do hear the FM is moving along; thanks for the heads up though Simms, all good info.

[PeeJayEss]

LoL.  And before the 1900s the vast majority in this country lived in rural areas and we had an agrarian economy.  Of course things change, but I'm looking at "our" lifetime.

So the entire population concentration of the nation flipped on its head in half a century's time, and somehow that proves your rule that demographics prevailing from the 70s to the 90s will continue in perpetuity? "Our lifetime" is expected to last through the middle of the century. You are sure there will be no changes between now and then?

And yes, as someone who works in real estate in many cities on many different projects, it is an overhyped falsity that all Millennials wish to live in the city (the fact that most can't come close to affording it be damned).  Anyone in RE and demographics will confirm that for you "off the record".  It makes for a great story, though!  Like I said (and have said before on this forum) the difference is that every city's core now has a younger segment, not just the top 5 largest cities.  Whereas before if you were college educated in a certain profession, you *had* to move to NYC, Chicago, SF, Boston, etc.  Now you can stay in your hometown, work a semi-similar job for less, AND live a semi-urban lifestyle for less.  This is simply a factor of the increase in secondary education in our country and the shift from manufacturing to services.  I know even back in the day "before young people moved to cities" both my parents lived in NYC, Miami and other cities post college before they married and settled down.  They must have been real odd!

These are all arguments, some of them untrue, against claims that I did not make. An important piece of the information on your parents, however if we want to talk about my statement, would be where they grew up. My parents grew up in the city, lived in the city, and then moved to the burbs to have kids. I don't think this one piece of information proves a nationwide trend.

And having been in 11E penthouse it is definitely luxurious in the loft apartment category.  I really don't think you're up to speed on just how expensive NYC, Boston and SF are.  You really can't find much at all under $2,000 in Manhattan and SF unless you're going to be living in a rough area in less than desirable conditions, and even "luxury" takes on a new meaning.  Whereas in Jax luxury implies all the bells and whistles, granite, stainless steel appliances, etc etc, in many cities luxury can be advertised if your faucet isn't leaky and your carpet isn't stained, ha.  In SF even top of the line apartments do not have central heating or air, and our $10K/mo corporate unit there is an outdated 60s 2 BR with mirrors covering the walls (no AC or heat either, though old floor heaters in the bathroom!).  We are leasing 2nd-4th floor apartments in Boston that are 285 SF for $1,500-$1,800/mo, and these are OLD (would be GHETTO in Jax).  Our "luxury" units there have a W/D, but no dishwasher...and sometimes only 1-2 coil stove.  At least the appliances are new, though hardly top of the line.  Granted they are in the Back Bay, which is appealing to wealthy college students and singles.

That's a great deal of hyperbole and a short list of anecdotes to make a point about "all" the real estate in major cities. My statement was simply that your comparison of the two markets, which basically said the cost of utmost luxury in Jax would get you no more than a bed in a shelter in Manhattan, was silly.

[BackinJax05]

It will be the first 5 story wooden structure built in Jacksonville? Really? Can you explain that in a little more detail? I'm very curious.

Me too.  What would be the reason for using wood for this?  Cost??  This isn't going to be another Villas of St Johns is it??  I love that place, but some of the walls bow out at least 2 inches. 

I will say one thing. Of all the multi-family projects in the core, this is the only one with a pool that will actually get full sun.  It's facing south, not too tall of buildings on either side, brilliant!!  When I lived at the peninsula, if you weren't on the pool deck by 12:15 you missed the sun.

Wood? seriously?

Not only does wood warp & bow out, its termite food, and it burns rather quickly.

This place is a good idea. Using wood isnt. (So much for going "green")

[JayBird]

^^I see that happening potentially in Mandarin due to its isolation and location (still Duval County with mediocre schools compared to SJC just 5 min away, but at far reaches and not close to employment center), but the SS will always be a "happening" and desirable spot.  Even the densest of cities have their "good" suburban side of town (west of Boston, northwest of Detroit, north of Atlanta, south of Miami, north of Dallas, west of Houston, west of Philly, south of SF and east of Oakland, etc etc).

Despite what people want to preach and believe, the majority of people, young, middle-aged, and old will and still live in the suburbs, and it will always be that way.  The notion that all of a sudden young people are living in the city for the first time is false.  The only difference is that now young people don't have to go live in their car in NYC or SF to be "in" the city and can find microcosms of city life within their own hometowns for much less.  A young person in Jax can rent a "Penthouse" with luxury in 11 East for less than it would cost to rent a room in an ok area of Manhattan or SF.  Still, even in Jax given the lower salaries, $1200+ rent is a big step and definitely puts you in the 1-3% range, and so even most in Jax won't be able to afford urban living there...in steps the suburbs where most live and will always live.

The suburbs are not all that old a concept, so sweeping generalities about how most people will live there "always" smack of naivety. I don't think there was ever a huge population of people living in their cars. All the large cities have a range of housing options, many of which are quite affordable. NYC, for example, was not always so expensive. That too is a fairly recent development. Nonetheless, you can still live on the cheap there if you have to, even in Manhattan.

No one is asserting that young people never lived in urban areas before. What is unique is people that grew up in the burbs are moving into cities. Because the burbs aren't all that old, this is relatively new behavior, and it is interesting because it was their parents that grew up in the city and moved out to the burbs. Most of them will probably move back to the burbs to raise kids, but that doesn't mean its not still a significant trend.

I don't think anyone is claiming that Jax can support the same rental rates as NYC or SF, nor do we think a Penthouse ($1800/month rent, btw) at 11E is the absolute lap of luxury (your quotation of luxury seems to indicate that your readers have a feeble understanding of luxury, as opposed to your refined self). NYC is more expensive, no doubt, but its silly to suggest you can't find a place in Manhattan for under $2000/month. You can find a pretty nice place with that in any part of the city, and you'd probably have a proper doorman, and some legitimate retail options under you. The difference is, in Jax, there are much fewer available, and a demand for more. and plenty of people can, and will, afford it.

LoL.  And before the 1900s the vast majority in this country lived in rural areas and we had an agrarian economy.  Of course things change, but I'm looking at "our" lifetime.

And yes, as someone who works in real estate in many cities on many different projects, it is an overhyped falsity that all Millennials wish to live in the city (the fact that most can't come close to affording it be damned).  Anyone in RE and demographics will confirm that for you "off the record".  It makes for a great story, though!  Like I said (and have said before on this forum) the difference is that every city's core now has a younger segment, not just the top 5 largest cities.  Whereas before if you were college educated in a certain profession, you *had* to move to NYC, Chicago, SF, Boston, etc.  Now you can stay in your hometown, work a semi-similar job for less, AND live a semi-urban lifestyle for less.  This is simply a factor of the increase in secondary education in our country and the shift from manufacturing to services.  I know even back in the day "before young people moved to cities" both my parents lived in NYC, Miami and other cities post college before they married and settled down.  They must have been real odd!

And having been in 11E penthouse it is definitely luxurious in the loft apartment category.  I really don't think you're up to speed on just how expensive NYC, Boston and SF are.  You really can't find much at all under $2,000 in Manhattan and SF unless you're going to be living in a rough area in less than desirable conditions, and even "luxury" takes on a new meaning.  Whereas in Jax luxury implies all the bells and whistles, granite, stainless steel appliances, etc etc, in many cities luxury can be advertised if your faucet isn't leaky and your carpet isn't stained, ha.  In SF even top of the line apartments do not have central heating or air, and our $10K/mo corporate unit there is an outdated 60s 2 BR with mirrors covering the walls (no AC or heat either, though old floor heaters in the bathroom!).  We are leasing 2nd-4th floor apartments in Boston that are 285 SF for $1,500-$1,800/mo, and these are OLD (would be GHETTO in Jax).  Our "luxury" units there have a W/D, but no dishwasher...and sometimes only 1-2 coil stove.  At least the appliances are new, though hardly top of the line.  Granted they are in the Back Bay, which is appealing to wealthy college students and singles.

Ummm ... PeeJay ... No.  I have to side with Simms on that one I live in Manhattan, and umm no.  Nothing even near Jax's idea of luxury can be attained for less than $2350 ... and that is a steal.  What 11E Forsyth Penthouse is offering, would be in the mid-$3,000's to start in a not so great neighborhood and only go from there. 

And yes, there is demand.  Several friends of mine now live in the Strand, after being on waiting lists for months!  I know three couples that are cannot wait to get into 220 Riverside, and I have sat many times at Kickbacks and listened to numerous people complain about the lack of housing in Jax's DT.  I firmly believe the market is there, it is just waiting for someone to take the risk, build it and others will see and follow.

[tufsu1]

^ maybe so, but Jax. isn't Manhattan...$1500 (the likely price for 3bdr units) may be doable here, but 1 bdr units for anything over $1000 are going to be a tough sell....frankly, I have a hard time understanding why folks like Simms spend upwards of $2000 a month for rent in cities like Atlanta

[PeeJayEss]

I don't think anyone is claiming that Jax can support the same rental rates as NYC or SF, nor do we think a Penthouse ($1800/month rent, btw) at 11E is the absolute lap of luxury (your quotation of luxury seems to indicate that your readers have a feeble understanding of luxury, as opposed to your refined self). NYC is more expensive, no doubt, but its silly to suggest you can't find a place in Manhattan for under $2000/month. You can find a pretty nice place with that in any part of the city, and you'd probably have a proper doorman, and some legitimate retail options under you. The difference is, in Jax, there are much fewer available, and a demand for more. and plenty of people can, and will, afford it.

Ummm ... PeeJay ... No.  I have to side with Simms on that one I live in Manhattan, and umm no.  Nothing even near Jax's idea of luxury can be attained for less than $2350 ... and that is a steal.  What 11E Forsyth Penthouse is offering, would be in the mid-$3,000's to start in a not so great neighborhood and only go from there. 

And yes, there is demand.  Several friends of mine now live in the Strand, after being on waiting lists for months!  I know three couples that are cannot wait to get into 220 Riverside, and I have sat many times at Kickbacks and listened to numerous people complain about the lack of housing in Jax's DT.  I firmly believe the market is there, it is just waiting for someone to take the risk, build it and others will see and follow.

Please explain the difference between Jax's and NYC's definition of luxury

I said "its silly to suggest you can't find a place in Manhattan for under $2000/month." You'll note that I did not say anything about luxury, size, floor, etc. I did say you could find a place in any part of the island for that price, and I stand by that. I did not say, and this seems to be how you and Simms are taking it, that you could get any place in NYC for under $2000, simply that you could get a place. And it would not be a slum, let's be serious. Now if you would like to explain what "Jax luxury" is and how it differs from "NYC luxury," then we can investigate this $2350 (pretty specific!) claim.

If your point is that NYC is more expensive than Jax...(to co-opt your indignant hesitation)...ummm...yea. Otherwise, the rest of what you said was, in fact, agreeing with my contention that there is a demand for these places in the core.

[Spence]

Question.
Concrete walls?
or wood frame?

[thelakelander]

^I believe this project will be a wood frame structure.

[Ocklawaha]

My daughter has a Manhattan apartment which is quite old, has 2 bedrooms (what Jacksonville would sell as walk-in-closets) and not much else and pays around $2,000 a month.  She sub rents one tiny bedroom for $1,200 a month to a girl she knew from Orlando.

NY and JAX? I love JAX but not even close Jack! Hell, San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Chicago, Washington, Philadelphia or Boston are not close either. We compare nicely with downtown Medellin, Colombia, where the rental rates for a high rise is on par with The Strand.  Medellin's advantage is if one is willing to use the incredible Metro, you can cut a luxury high rise down into the mid hundred's, USD $. I have Colombian family in Miami and their apartment payments are rapidly out pacing Jacksonville.

DEEP DEUCE in OKC might be a fair comparison, here's a tad of their advertisement.

"Deep Deuce at Bricktown, the soul of Deep Deuce. A rejuvenation is taking place... to the way it was, the way it should be. A melting pot of entertainment, commerce, and living welcomes you to a historic backdrop in the heart of Oklahoma City.It's Deep Deuce... it's urban, it's convenient, and all that jazz."

APARTMENTS-MONTHLY RENT-DEPOSIT-BATH-SQ FOOTAGE
1 Bedroom $665 - $1125........$100........ 1........ 515 - 826
2 Bedroom $910 - $1375........$200........ 2........ 974 - 1253
3 Bedroom $1130 - $1550......$200........ 2........ 1276

[Ocklawaha]

^I believe this project will be a wood frame structure.

Faulkner said the wood-frame structure would be the first five-story wooden structure built in Jacksonville and the material was chosen to control the cost of the development.

So should we read with wood frame with exterior stucco? Block? Brick? Or are we talking about painted wood surfaces?

[thelakelander]

Appears to be a mix of stucco and metal for the exterior.

[JayBird]

I don't think anyone is claiming that Jax can support the same rental rates as NYC or SF, nor do we think a Penthouse ($1800/month rent, btw) at 11E is the absolute lap of luxury (your quotation of luxury seems to indicate that your readers have a feeble understanding of luxury, as opposed to your refined self). NYC is more expensive, no doubt, but its silly to suggest you can't find a place in Manhattan for under $2000/month. You can find a pretty nice place with that in any part of the city, and you'd probably have a proper doorman, and some legitimate retail options under you. The difference is, in Jax, there are much fewer available, and a demand for more. and plenty of people can, and will, afford it.

Ummm ... PeeJay ... No.  I have to side with Simms on that one I live in Manhattan, and umm no.  Nothing even near Jax's idea of luxury can be attained for less than $2350 ... and that is a steal.  What 11E Forsyth Penthouse is offering, would be in the mid-$3,000's to start in a not so great neighborhood and only go from there. 

And yes, there is demand.  Several friends of mine now live in the Strand, after being on waiting lists for months!  I know three couples that are cannot wait to get into 220 Riverside, and I have sat many times at Kickbacks and listened to numerous people complain about the lack of housing in Jax's DT.  I firmly believe the market is there, it is just waiting for someone to take the risk, build it and others will see and follow.

Please explain the difference between Jax's and NYC's definition of luxury

I said "its silly to suggest you can't find a place in Manhattan for under $2000/month." You'll note that I did not say anything about luxury, size, floor, etc. I did say you could find a place in any part of the island for that price, and I stand by that. I did not say, and this seems to be how you and Simms are taking it, that you could get any place in NYC for under $2000, simply that you could get a place. And it would not be a slum, let's be serious. Now if you would like to explain what "Jax luxury" is and how it differs from "NYC luxury," then we can investigate this $2350 (pretty specific!) claim.

If your point is that NYC is more expensive than Jax...(to co-opt your indignant hesitation)...ummm...yea. Otherwise, the rest of what you said was, in fact, agreeing with my contention that there is a demand for these places in the core.

True you and I agree on market being there because I know that market is there.  College grads 26-34 (not statistic people, just from my social circle) want to be in urban area.  suburbs are viewed as 'where you go when you grow up and start a family' i.e. kids.  Now that is not is fact, just my opinion from the groups I hang out with, but I believe firmly market exists to support much more Brooklyn/core residences.

As for luxury, yes you did not say that but you did say "pretty nice place" which through simms post I probably convoluted into 'luxury'.  Did not mean to put words in your mouth.  But that simply is not true.  One great thing about Jax is the ability to rent a one bedroom and not require a roommate.   In NYC unless you are making top salary, it is unheard of not to have a roommate.  The $2350 is the price of a very close match to 11E penthouse, it is the Mott Towers in the Bronx (not Manhattan but you can get there in one subway stop which in real estate qualifies for for Manhattan) and it is through Housing Authority (yes, Section 8 subsidized) for a family of at least 5 persons.  So to say you can find something "nice" for under $2000 in Manhattan ... in order to be true that would require roommate or a 300-450 sq ft space that you share the bathroom down the hall with floor neighbors in Alphabet City, washington heights or ingleside.  Even Harlem has premiums now.  I have an apartment in Murray Hill (midtown), 8th floor one bedroom and rent out living room as convertible bedroom to roommate and I am on lower end of spectrum in area and pay $2765 just to occupy space.  Utils not included.  And that is bargain I have people trying to get apps into my building all the time because that is cheap!  Once again, NYC cannot even compare to Jax.  So before even begin comparing ideas of luxury, you would first have to understand that the levels of housing in NYC, from studios to 3 BR convertibles are very different than the residence options in Jax.

Also, as a side note "ummm ..." is not hesitation.  I am from that pesky Y generation and the world of facebook twitter and texting has taught us that is how to express sarcasm or amazement in others, pause in speech.  I was only expressing my shock that one would think that when NYC and Tokyo have been known worldwide for their high housing costs for quite some time now, that one would not even make such a comment.  Because it is so well known, that makes other points you make seem invalid when they aren't.  Born and raised in Jersey when I came to Florida I was amazed at how cheap housing was in June 2003 when I bought in Eagle Harbor on Fleming Island where I still live and claim as my official residence even though lately work has kept in NYC a lot.  Not trying to be rude, just explaining.

[JayBird]

Oh and as completely different side note, take a trip to NYC it is simply an amazing city that is constantly changing.  However you will notice that outside of upper level hotels, Upper East Side Co-ops and designer clothing stores the "doorman" has gone the way of the elevator attendent.  About three to five years ago that service job was passed off to front desk security and now it truly is fading away.  Which is sad because NYC is highly social, but with the times of smartphones and social networking, the doorman/security guard/front desk attendent was sometimes you're only real human interaction outside of work.  They became sort of like extended family members for those that had family afar.   Such is progress I guess.

[PeeJayEss]

As for luxury, yes you did not say that but you did say "pretty nice place" which through simms post I probably convoluted into 'luxury'.  Did not mean to put words in your mouth.  But that simply is not true.  One great thing about Jax is the ability to rent a one bedroom and not require a roommate.   In NYC unless you are making top salary, it is unheard of not to have a roommate.  The $2350 is the price of a very close match to 11E penthouse, it is the Mott Towers in the Bronx (not Manhattan but you can get there in one subway stop which in real estate qualifies for for Manhattan) and it is through Housing Authority (yes, Section 8 subsidized) for a family of at least 5 persons.  So to say you can find something "nice" for under $2000 in Manhattan ... in order to be true that would require roommate or a 300-450 sq ft space that you share the bathroom down the hall with floor neighbors in Alphabet City, washington heights or ingleside.  Even Harlem has premiums now.  I have an apartment in Murray Hill (midtown), 8th floor one bedroom and rent out living room as convertible bedroom to roommate and I am on lower end of spectrum in area and pay $2765 just to occupy space.  Utils not included.  And that is bargain I have people trying to get apps into my building all the time because that is cheap!  Once again, NYC cannot even compare to Jax.  So before even begin comparing ideas of luxury, you would first have to understand that the levels of housing in NYC, from studios to 3 BR convertibles are very different than the residence options in Jax.

Also, as a side note "ummm ..." is not hesitation.  I am from that pesky Y generation and the world of facebook twitter and texting has taught us that is how to express sarcasm or amazement in others, pause in speech.  I was only expressing my shock that one would think that when NYC and Tokyo have been known worldwide for their high housing costs for quite some time now, that one would not even make such a comment.  Because it is so well known, that makes other points you make seem invalid when they aren't.  Born and raised in Jersey when I came to Florida I was amazed at how cheap housing was in June 2003 when I bought in Eagle Harbor on Fleming Island where I still live and claim as my official residence even though lately work has kept in NYC a lot.  Not trying to be rude, just explaining.

What comment? If your point is that NYC is more expensive than Jax, I'm not arguing with you (no one is). I'm not sure why you keep hammering away that fact. Almost everywhere is more expensive than Jax. My point, which is confirmed by the anecdote below, was that you could, in fact, get a place in Manhattan for $2000/month. I'm happy for you that you have a place that is more expensive than that, but that is not the point.

My daughter has a Manhattan apartment which is quite old, has 2 bedrooms (what Jacksonville would sell as walk-in-closets) and not much else and pays around $2,000 a month.  She sub rents one tiny bedroom for $1,200 a month to a girl she knew from Orlando.

If I ever take a trip outside of Jacksonville, I will have to check out this NYC place. It sounds great!

[ben says]

Appears to be a mix of stucco and metal for the exterior.

If it ends up looking 1/2 as good as that rendering, I'll be thrilled. Something tells me it wont