A Closer Look At Riverside YMCA's Development Plans

[Wacca Pilatka]

It would be tragic indeed to spend a year getting into great physical shape at the YMCA, only to be run over by a bus in front of the facility.

As frustrating as the concept is, that line is hilarious.

[MEGATRON]

It would be strange for there to be absolutely no demand for such a parcel when every other available parcel around it has been snapped up and will be going vertical as +600 apartment units or retail within the next few months to a year.

The Everbank building on Riverside has a commercial component that fronts Riverside.  How is that faring?

[MEGATRON]

Close to 5 points, close to DT, riverfront views, along the riverwalk, next to RAM, and so on.

No offense, but you are not dealing in reality if you think proximity to downtown, 5 Points and RAM are "huge" drawing points.

[PeeJayEss]

Close to 5 points, close to DT, riverfront views, along the riverwalk, next to RAM, and so on.

No offense, but you are not dealing in reality if you think proximity to downtown, 5 Points and RAM are "huge" drawing points.

what would be the most appropriate adjective in this case? And in what case would huge be appropriate?

[thelakelander]

It would be strange for there to be absolutely no demand for such a parcel when every other available parcel around it has been snapped up and will be going vertical as +600 apartment units or retail within the next few months to a year.

The Everbank building on Riverside has a commercial component that fronts Riverside.  How is that faring?

Do you think its empty because there is no market or could there be other factors at play?  Any idea why Fresh Market would be interested in a proposed retail development across the street from the YMCA building and not the Everbank Building's retail slots?

[CityLife]

"That's just a ploy that developers use to get around the city requirements.  I think the design approval should be contingent upon the Y issuing an RFP for the development of the front of the site.  Otherwise, it will be at least a decade before we see anything go up on Riverside Ave."

^And what if there isn't demand to develop the front of the property?  The Y can't go forward with its plans?

Its prime real estate that fronts Riverside Avenue and has river views. If there isn't demand to build on it, Jacksonville is toast.

That doesn't answer my question.  Should they be denied if they can't get a good deal on the land they own?  The Y's architectural design committee did consider selling the river side of the parcel to fund a new facility, but every expert they consulted concluded there simply was little demand at this point, especially for a MUD project on the river.  I think the fact that the Y's plan include a contingency for future development facing Riverside Avenue is a good sign.  It is a sign that they're in tune with those who want to see infill and the elimination of surface lots.

Actually the 2nd part of my response did answer your question with potential solutions to both sides concerns. If it is a PUD, the Y can build their riverfront portion as Phase 1, with the Riverside Avenue portion being Phase 2. This would ensure that the riverfront portion could be developed prior to any kind of agreement/contract on the Riverside Avenue portion, yet hold the YMCA to a specific time frame to develop or sell the Riverside Ave portion. Otherwise, as Captain Z pointed out, there is absolutely no way to ensure that the Riverside Avenue portion ever gets developed as conceptually proposed by the Y. Essentially, it forces them to put their money where their mouth is.

Sure it is private land and they own it, but there are also requesting deviations in order to get the proposed project built and they are also using the conceptual Riverside Avenue plans to sell those deviations. Therefore, they should be legally bound to do what they say they will in order to get approval.

[CityLife]

Close to 5 points, close to DT, riverfront views, along the riverwalk, next to RAM, and so on.

No offense, but you are not dealing in reality if you think proximity to downtown, 5 Points and RAM are "huge" drawing points.

Look at the rents of The Strand and get back to me about how desirable DT riverfront living is...Or maybe go to the Riverside Ave riverwalk tonight to see how many people are walking, biking, and jogging. Or look at rental rates for downtown units....

[MEGATRON]

It would be strange for there to be absolutely no demand for such a parcel when every other available parcel around it has been snapped up and will be going vertical as +600 apartment units or retail within the next few months to a year.

The Everbank building on Riverside has a commercial component that fronts Riverside.  How is that faring?

Do you think its empty because there is no market or could there be other factors at play?  Any idea why Fresh Market would be interested in a proposed retail development across the street from the YMCA building and not the Everbank Building's retail slots?

Variety of factors but, in regard to Fresh Market, my guess would be size of facility and cost.  My point is that its very easy for us to snipe about the lack of retail component along Riverside. The reality is that the demand is probably not there.  Hopefully the demand will arise in the next 10 years.

[MEGATRON]

Close to 5 points, close to DT, riverfront views, along the riverwalk, next to RAM, and so on.

No offense, but you are not dealing in reality if you think proximity to downtown, 5 Points and RAM are "huge" drawing points.

Look at the rents of The Strand and get back to me about how desirable DT riverfront living is...Or maybe go to the Riverside Ave riverwalk tonight to see how many people are walking, biking, and jogging. Or look at rental rates for downtown units....

What's the occupancy rate in the Strand and the Peninsula?  I am asking not to be smart but because I don't know.  If downtown riverfront was so desirable, how are the Strand and the Peninsula the only projects to be constructed in the last 20 years?  Don't get me wrong, there is some demand but you are seriously overstating it.

[thelakelander]

It would be strange for there to be absolutely no demand for such a parcel when every other available parcel around it has been snapped up and will be going vertical as +600 apartment units or retail within the next few months to a year.

The Everbank building on Riverside has a commercial component that fronts Riverside.  How is that faring?

Do you think its empty because there is no market or could there be other factors at play?  Any idea why Fresh Market would be interested in a proposed retail development across the street from the YMCA building and not the Everbank Building's retail slots?

Variety of factors but, in regard to Fresh Market, my guess would be size of facility and cost.

Bingo.

My point is that its very easy for us to snipe about the lack of retail component along Riverside. The reality is that the demand is probably not there.  Hopefully the demand will arise in the next 10 years.

I never said anything about forcing a retail component at the YMCA site.  What I'm saying is you simply can't assume there's no demand for anything as a reason for not even attempting to shoot for quality infill.  In the case of Everbank's spaces, you can't say because its empty there's no demand for retail.  Perhaps the leasing rates are too high or the space is a poorly designed one.  There are always several factors at play.  In the case of the YMCA, perhaps there is no demand for Class A office space on the site.  However, that doesn't mean there's not demand for hotels, apartments, strip retail, sit-down restaurants, etc.

[PeeJayEss]

Close to 5 points, close to DT, riverfront views, along the riverwalk, next to RAM, and so on.

No offense, but you are not dealing in reality if you think proximity to downtown, 5 Points and RAM are "huge" drawing points.

Look at the rents of The Strand and get back to me about how desirable DT riverfront living is...Or maybe go to the Riverside Ave riverwalk tonight to see how many people are walking, biking, and jogging. Or look at rental rates for downtown units....

What's the occupancy rate in the Strand and the Peninsula?  I am asking not to be smart but because I don't know.  If downtown riverfront was so desirable, how are the Strand and the Peninsula the only projects to be constructed in the last 20 years?  Don't get me wrong, there is some demand but you are seriously overstating it.

Berkman would also be added to that list. The complexity of that project being unfinished has been discussed on this site plenty, but I don't think it is all market related. The Shipyards is the only riverfront land downtown that is unoccupied. That one has also been discussed ad nauseaum, but the reason that is undeveloped has more to do with the city than the market, I believe.

There's not much room for development without knocking down and replacing the under-performers (The Wharfs property/hotel, old courthouse lot, etc).

[CityLife]

Close to 5 points, close to DT, riverfront views, along the riverwalk, next to RAM, and so on.

No offense, but you are not dealing in reality if you think proximity to downtown, 5 Points and RAM are "huge" drawing points.

Look at the rents of The Strand and get back to me about how desirable DT riverfront living is...Or maybe go to the Riverside Ave riverwalk tonight to see how many people are walking, biking, and jogging. Or look at rental rates for downtown units....

What's the occupancy rate in the Strand and the Peninsula?  I am asking not to be smart but because I don't know.  If downtown riverfront was so desirable, how are the Strand and the Peninsula the only projects to be constructed in the last 20 years?  Don't get me wrong, there is some demand but you are seriously overstating it.

Read the recent TU article about demand downtown. Its extremely high and The Strand wouldn't charge such high prices if there wasn't high demand for riverfront living. You are also forgetting Berkman Plaza and the other one on the Southbank (name escapes me).

The reason that so few have been built is that the cost to acquire riverfront land makes it cost prohibitive. Which is precisely why I said its a great opportunity to make it a mixed use project with residential. Especially when considering that residential and The Y are symbiotic uses. The land is already being built on, so a developer would just have to pay for the increased costs of a taller building and little extra to the YMCA for the trouble. Win-Win. Developer has a significantly reduced cost for riverfront property, plus an on-site gym/pool already built. YMCA would make extra money from the developer and/or perhaps even the cost of a parking garage, plus a 4th or 5th floor Y would have much better scenic views of the river/DT than it would at the 1st or 2nd floor.

I'm not saying that its is a sure thing, just something that I hope the Y has seriously considered or reached out to developers about.

[MEGATRON]

Close to 5 points, close to DT, riverfront views, along the riverwalk, next to RAM, and so on.

No offense, but you are not dealing in reality if you think proximity to downtown, 5 Points and RAM are "huge" drawing points.

Look at the rents of The Strand and get back to me about how desirable DT riverfront living is...Or maybe go to the Riverside Ave riverwalk tonight to see how many people are walking, biking, and jogging. Or look at rental rates for downtown units....

What's the occupancy rate in the Strand and the Peninsula?  I am asking not to be smart but because I don't know.  If downtown riverfront was so desirable, how are the Strand and the Peninsula the only projects to be constructed in the last 20 years?  Don't get me wrong, there is some demand but you are seriously overstating it.

Berkman would also be added to that list. The complexity of that project being unfinished has been discussed on this site plenty, but I don't think it is all market related. The Shipyards is the only riverfront land downtown that is unoccupied. That one has also been discussed ad nauseaum, but the reason that is undeveloped has more to do with the city than the market, I believe.

There's not much room for development without knocking down and replacing the under-performers (The Wharfs property/hotel, old courthouse lot, etc).

The old Southside Generating Station sits vacant.  The entitled project next the the Aetna building could not get off the ground.  The front of the Haskell property has not moved.

[MEGATRON]

I never said anything about forcing a retail component at the YMCA site.  What I'm saying is you simply can't assume there's no demand for anything as a reason for not even attempting to shoot for quality infill.  In the case of Everbank's spaces, you can't say because its empty there's no demand for retail.  Perhaps the leasing rates are too high or the space is a poorly designed one.  There are always several factors at play.  In the case of the YMCA, perhaps there is no demand for Class A office space on the site.  However, that doesn't mean there's not demand for hotels, apartments, strip retail, sit-down restaurants, etc.

The Y has looked at a variety of uses on that property over the past 6-7 years.

[thelakelander]

The market has changed since the economy went into recession four to five years ago.  All I'm saying is you can't simply state there's no demand for anything.  You may struggle to land a specific desired use at a predetermined targeted price point but that doesn't mean there's no demand for anything.