Skyway Extension - Stadium

[Jason]

My concerns are mainly regarding the Eastside and Sports District.  If a streetcar line were implemented that connected that side of town to the core, there would be no need to expand the skyway.  Yes, it would be cheaper but it would likely be the nail in the coffin for all of that money invested in the skyway system. 

If youreally want to get the most bang for your buck then remove the short streetcar brance to the sports district and use the money to run deeper into Springfield and leave the Eastside alone until a skyway extension can be funded.

[Ocklawaha]

Exactly Jason, as we have 'imaginered' the two systems, the closest they come to competing with ourselves would be the stretch from Jacksonville Terminal (JRTC to the unwashed masses) and Newnan Street. However this being the core of Jacksonville, it wouldn't hurt either system to travel this key area a block apart. In short the same thing Denver has done with it's 16Th Street transit mall. I would suggest that the streetcar ultimately have a return loop running from roughly Duval and Palmetto Street, following Duval straight behind the new Courthouse to Lee, and south on Lee to the Jacksonville Terminal.

Streetcar primary links and Terminals:

Gateway Mall - Jacksonville Arena
Jacksonville Arena - Lee (via Duval)
Arena on Duval - Newnan Street Skyway interchange
Water Street FROM Newnan too Lee
Lee to Blue Cross - 5 Points - King Street

Skyway:

Shands/VA to Central Station
Stadium District to Central Station
Central Station to Jacksonville Terminal
Central Station to San Marco
Central Station to  Riverside

Each doing what it does best.

[thelakelander]

When looking at the Eastside, it starts to boil down to are we trying to create the best system we can with the resources we have or are we simply wanting to extend the skyway just because we have a skyway.  The skyway's success isn't dependent on a connection to the stadium.  It's success will be more dependent on having it tied into a regional mass transit system. 

I'd argue that it would make more sense to evaluate extending the skyway to areas where we need grade separated crossings over railroad tracks and yards.  With that in mind, the Southbank, San Marco, Farmer's Market, etc. are areas where better inner city utilization could be had with the skyway.  Another area would be the original proposal to Shands, which would provide redevelopment incentive in Sugar Hill and Hansontown.

As for the stadium, since I'm not sold that Everbank Field is the key to the skyway's success, I still believe we'd get more bang for our buck by designing something that better fits into the area (especially Bay Street east of Liberty) and is proven to stimulate more economic development.

If youreally want to get the most bang for your buck then remove the short streetcar brance to the sports district and use the money to run deeper into Springfield and leave the Eastside alone until a skyway extension can be funded.

Another option could be to run street level transit deeper into Springfield, the Eastside, Phoenix Avenue, and potentially Fairfax by stretching the skyway stadium money.  Or take the skyway money and get it extended to the farmer's market or San Marco.

Another thing to consider is the skyway's life.  It's no spring chicken.  At what point will it require millions in upgrades to keep it running as is?  When that time comes, does it make sense to consider changing what it is?  Could it become some form of elevated LRT or streetcar itself?

[thelakelander]

Exactly Jason, as we have 'imaginered' the two systems, the closest they come to competing with ourselves would be the stretch from Jacksonville Terminal (JRTC to the unwashed masses) and Newnan Street. However this being the core of Jacksonville, it wouldn't hurt either system to travel this key area a block apart.

They wouldn't compete in this stretch because the'd be connecting different destinations.  If I were coming or going to San Marco, I'd use the skyway because the streetcar wouldn't cross the river.  If I were coming from Riverside or going to the Landing, the streetcar would be the route.  In the vicinity of the Prime Osborn, instead of competing, that would provide the opportunity to transfer between modes.  The real duplication is the proposed BRT line on the Southbank.  Now that's something that's simply not needed with the skyway being there.

[Jason]

Exactly Jason, as we have 'imaginered' the two systems, the closest they come to competing with ourselves would be the stretch from Jacksonville Terminal (JRTC to the unwashed masses) and Newnan Street. However this being the core of Jacksonville, it wouldn't hurt either system to travel this key area a block apart. In short the same thing Denver has done with it's 16Th Street transit mall. I would suggest that the streetcar ultimately have a return loop running from roughly Duval and Palmetto Street, following Duval straight behind the new Courthouse to Lee, and south on Lee to the Jacksonville Terminal.

Streetcar primary links and Terminals:

Gateway Mall - Jacksonville Arena
Jacksonville Arena - Lee (via Duval)
Arena on Duval - Newnan Street Skyway interchange
Water Street FROM Newnan too Lee
Lee to Blue Cross - 5 Points - King Street

Skyway:

Shands/VA to Central Station
Stadium District to Central Station
Central Station to Jacksonville Terminal
Central Station to San Marco
Central Station to  Riverside

Each doing what it does best.

I'm definitely with you on the return loop idea.  IMO, it is a major limiting factor that the system is a "to and for" style system which limits headways and complicates routes.  Miami is an effecient example of a loop system that gives them greater flexiblity and expandibility.

[Jason]

When looking at the Eastside, it starts to boil down to are we trying to create the best system we can with the resources we have or are we simply wanting to extend the skyway just because we have a skyway.  The skyway's success isn't dependent on a connection to the stadium.  It's success will be more dependent on having it tied into a regional mass transit system.

I'd measure the skyway's success by how well it moves people within the core, as it was intended to do.  It will naturally gain ridership as the outlying nodes are connected to it via the JRTC.  Ensuring that the Skyway is as comprehensive as possible makes it a an exponetially better system that limits transfers and gives those that are already downtown a faster alternative to navigate the core.

I'd argue that it would make more sense to evaluate extending the skyway to areas where we need grade separated crossings over railroad tracks and yards.  With that in mind, the Southbank, San Marco, Farmer's Market, etc. are areas where better inner city utilization could be had with the skyway.  Another area would be the original proposal to Shands, which would provide redevelopment incentive in Sugar Hill and Hansontown.

Grade separated crossings make a lot of sence in a sports district that deals with ebbs and flows of gridlock traffic allowing seamless and quick routes into and out of the immediate area.  And I don't think we should be expanding this thing for the sole purpose of the Jag gameday mess, moreso as a reliable convenient means to navigate the area.

Another thing to consider is the skyway's life.  It's no spring chicken.  At what point will it require millions in upgrades to keep it running as is?  When that time comes, does it make sense to consider changing what it is?  Could it become some form of elevated LRT or streetcar itself?

You got me here.  There is certainly no arguing that the Skyway would cost less to maintain.  And if the slate were clean, at grade transit would prevail.

[Jason]

Exactly Jason, as we have 'imaginered' the two systems, the closest they come to competing with ourselves would be the stretch from Jacksonville Terminal (JRTC to the unwashed masses) and Newnan Street. However this being the core of Jacksonville, it wouldn't hurt either system to travel this key area a block apart.

They wouldn't compete in this stretch because the'd be connecting different destinations.  If I were coming or going to San Marco, I'd use the skyway because the streetcar wouldn't cross the river.  If I were coming from Riverside or going to the Landing, the streetcar would be the route.  In the vicinity of the Prime Osborn, instead of competing, that would provide the opportunity to transfer between modes.  The real duplication is the proposed BRT line on the Southbank.  Now that's something that's simply not needed with the skyway being there.

Neighborhood to neighborhood would most definitely make the most sence via streetcar.  Though, neighborhood to DT would require a transfer at JRTC from streetcar to the Skyway (as it should be).  There would only be a neighborhood to downtown via streetcar in the areas not served by the skyway.

[thelakelander]

I'd measure the skyway's success by how well it moves people within the core, as it was intended to do.  It will naturally gain ridership as the outlying nodes are connected to it via the JRTC.  Ensuring that the Skyway is as comprehensive as possible makes it a an exponetially better system that limits transfers and gives those that are already downtown a faster alternative to navigate the core.

You can achieve this without a "skyway" extension to the sports district.

I'd argue that it would make more sense to evaluate extending the skyway to areas where we need grade separated crossings over railroad tracks and yards.  With that in mind, the Southbank, San Marco, Farmer's Market, etc. are areas where better inner city utilization could be had with the skyway.  Another area would be the original proposal to Shands, which would provide redevelopment incentive in Sugar Hill and Hansontown.

Grade separated crossings make a lot of sence in a sports district that deals with ebbs and flows of gridlock traffic allowing seamless and quick routes into and out of the immediate area.  And I don't think we should be expanding this thing for the sole purpose of the Jag gameday mess, moreso as a reliable convenient means to navigate the area.[/quote]

Assuming the Hart Bridge Expressway ramp were used, you could accomplish this with a variety of modes.  However, being able to bring the system down to grade would enable the preservation of Bay Street's historical character.  As those older buildings continue to be utilized, it's probably not the best idea to have a skyway car running past the front of people's loft living rooms.

Another thing to consider is the skyway's life.  It's no spring chicken.  At what point will it require millions in upgrades to keep it running as is?  When that time comes, does it make sense to consider changing what it is?  Could it become some form of elevated LRT or streetcar itself?

You got me here.  There is certainly no arguing that the Skyway would cost less to maintain.  And if the slate were clean, at grade transit would prevail.

I bring this up to simply encourage an open minded planning process.  I'd hate to see us force something that may be a worse and more expensive fix, simply because we assume we have to make the skyway work "as is" or as originally conceived.  There are a lot of alternatives, variations, combinations, etc. out there worth exploring.

Neighborhood to neighborhood would most definitely make the most sence via streetcar.  Though, neighborhood to DT would require a transfer at JRTC from streetcar to the Skyway (as it should be).  There would only be a neighborhood to downtown via streetcar in the areas not served by the skyway.

I wouldn't worry too much about transferring.  The best mass transit systems contain a variety of modes designed specifically for the corridors they serve. As far as the streetcar goes, the great benefit in it would be connecting downtown with the surrounding urban core neighborhoods.  However, the skyway can't go everywhere.  Thus, when designing additional modes that complement, they provide an opportunity to better serve certain areas at a lesser expense.  This is the case in both Miami and Detroit, where both are proposing streetcar systems to complement their skyway siblings.

[Jason]

Assuming the Hart Bridge Expressway ramp were used, you could accomplish this with a variety of modes.  However, being able to bring the system down to grade would enable the preservation of Bay Street's historical character.  As those older buildings continue to be utilized, it's probably not the best idea to have a skyway car running past the front of people's loft living rooms.

There is only a three block stretch that would be affected by this and the line would be on the opposite side of the street (through the historic area).  IMO, a necessary evil in urban living.    Also, if it were tied directly into a new convention center there would be even less of the line exposed to the tenants across the street.

I bring this up to simply encourage an open minded planning process.  I'd hate to see us force something that may be a worse and more expensive fix, simply because we assume we have to make the skyway work "as is" or as originally conceived.  There are a lot of alternatives, variations, combinations, etc. out there worth exploring.

I could not agree more.  That's why we're having this discussion.

I wouldn't worry too much about transferring.  The best mass transit systems contain a variety of modes designed specifically for the corridors they serve. As far as the streetcar goes, the great benefit in it would be connecting downtown with the surrounding urban core neighborhoods.  However, the skyway can't go everywhere.  Thus, when designing additional modes that complement, they provide an opportunity to better serve certain areas at a lesser expense.  This is the case in both Miami and Detroit, where both are proposing streetcar systems to complement their skyway siblings.

Miami and Detroit are enjoying the benefits of a more-or-less completed skyway system and are now expanding their reach to untapped areas via streetcar.

I think we'd all agree that our skyway is unfinished.  Short of a small extension to Brooklyn, the sports district is the major hole.  Why not fill that hole with an extension that will also pick up Bay Street and possibly the Cathedral district in the process?

[thelakelander]

Assuming the Hart Bridge Expressway ramp were used, you could accomplish this with a variety of modes.  However, being able to bring the system down to grade would enable the preservation of Bay Street's historical character.  As those older buildings continue to be utilized, it's probably not the best idea to have a skyway car running past the front of people's loft living rooms.

There is only a three block stretch that would be affected by this and the line would be on the opposite side of the street (through the historic area).  IMO, a necessary evil in urban living.    Also, if it were tied directly into a new convention center there would be even less of the line exposed to the tenants across the street.

It doesn't have to be a necessary evil, unless we force something elevated down that corridor.

I wouldn't worry too much about transferring.  The best mass transit systems contain a variety of modes designed specifically for the corridors they serve. As far as the streetcar goes, the great benefit in it would be connecting downtown with the surrounding urban core neighborhoods.  However, the skyway can't go everywhere.  Thus, when designing additional modes that complement, they provide an opportunity to better serve certain areas at a lesser expense.  This is the case in both Miami and Detroit, where both are proposing streetcar systems to complement their skyway siblings.

Miami and Detroit are enjoying the benefits of a more-or-less completed skyway system and are now expanding their reach to untapped areas via streetcar.

I think we'd all agree that our skyway is unfinished.  Short of a small extension to Brooklyn, the sports district is the major hole.  Why not fill that hole with an extension that will also pick up Bay Street and possibly the Cathedral district in the process?

Being a regular in Detroit, I'd say their peoplemover is worse off than ours.  Ours may not be complete but in most cases, you're better off walking that taking their one-way looped route around downtown.  You'll save yourself some change, not waste time moving vertically, and reach your destination faster. 

They have the same discussions we have about what to do with their peoplemover.  Now they've decided to feed riders into it with a modern streetcar line that will bisect it in downtown and extend north into New Center.  Two different modes, yet complementing each other within the core. 

Also, the streetcar line (currently shown in LRTP, mobility and JTA plans) to Springfield pretty much accomplishes what the skyway won't be able to do.  Serve an entire section of downtown (Cathedral District, Bay Street Town Center, etc.) as it connects DT with an adjacent neighborhood in Springfield. The benefit here is its literally an extension of the Riverside line and complements the skyway by feeding riders into it.

[Ocklawaha]

It's not like the Federal Government hasn't encouraged this sort of multi-modalism in the recent past.

I would like to see plans drawn up for the Skyway to expand to the area of the fair grounds, north to VA/Shand's, West to Farmers Market/Woodstock Park, Southwest to Annie Lytle, Southeast to Atlantic in San Marco.

Make a plan for it to work, then work the plan. Done incrementally with a 10-15 year build out almost entirely on the federal grant system. I would inflate the hell out of the cost of the two interchange stations with Streetcar, allowing the Fed's to shoulder a larger chunk of dollars. I would turn the plans over to the Chamber Of Commerce business development section and have staff write powerful Op-Ed's suggesting any high rise in the east side along Bay or Randolph would get the Skyway Extension and Station. We'll never know what the resolve is in Congress, as long as JTA remains scared to move forward without testing the opportunity.

I would also set the plan up as the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM expansion of the little monorail until at least 2030 when the plans could again be reviewed.

Include station and train modifications to accommodate bicycles, power chairs, and commercial vendors. Reopen the rest rooms.

I would include the Southbank  Sky-Walks tapping Riverplace, Prudential, Aetna, Baptist, Wolfson  and Nemours. Beyond this frame work, ALL other mass transit expansion would be steel wheel on steel rail technology. A self funded heritage streetcar (more historical then you might think as I have learned the original Riverside line had a northern terminus in New Springfield) and a Streetcar plan to match. Using Fairfax, Stadium, Gateway, Shand's as well as a downtown loop and stadium loop. Again setting an incremental goal, staying the course, promoting the route to developers,

Lastly the old fire station 5 would be lifted and moved across Riverside Avenue to the corner FDOT/JTA lot then adapted as both a 'antique' Skyway and Streetcar Terminal, as well as ample lease space for commercial businesses. This would preserve the old station and continue it's use as a public building. This could be a 'practice preservation effort' prior to reaching Annie Lytle.

Lastly the trains would be lengthened to include 4 cars with two large center cars, and the end units we see today.

Help Save the Historic Fire Station #5


Brooklyn’s historic Fire Station #5, built in 1910 to replace a modest wooden structure dating to 1897 on the same site, now faces imminent demolition unless funds can be raised to move the structure. There are numerous reasons to save this attractive brick building, but there appears to be a lack of will at City Hall to take up the cause. Please consider adding your voice to the calls to save one of Jacksonville’s most endangered historic treasures. Your neighbors have created an informational page on Facebook as well as a petition urging city officials to protect this unique structure for future generations. The move itself might be achieved as a practice session of the Seabees and National Guard.
SOURCE: R.A.P. Historic Preservation Page

[tufsu1]

yeah...but the Seattle monorial is nearly dead now...thanks in part to the success of the streetcar

[Jason]

It doesn't have to be a necessary evil, unless we force something elevated down that corridor.

That has been the plan since the skyway's inception.  We would once again be tossing aside working planning documents after completing half of it.  We've all touted time and time again that Jax has a bad habit of half baked and unfinished plans.  Why continue that pattern?

Being a regular in Detroit, I'd say their peoplemover is worse off than ours.  Ours may not be complete but in most cases, you're better off walking that taking their one-way looped route around downtown.  You'll save yourself some change, not waste time moving vertically, and reach your destination faster. 

They have the same discussions we have about what to do with their peoplemover.  Now they've decided to feed riders into it with a modern streetcar line that will bisect it in downtown and extend north into New Center.  Two different modes, yet complementing each other within the core. 

Also, the streetcar line (currently shown in LRTP, mobility and JTA plans) to Springfield pretty much accomplishes what the skyway won't be able to do.  Serve an entire section of downtown (Cathedral District, Bay Street Town Center, etc.) as it connects DT with an adjacent neighborhood in Springfield. The benefit here is its literally an extension of the Riverside line and complements the skyway by feeding riders into it.

I'm not arguing that streetcars are not needed.  I think we agree completely.  I'm just of the opinion that we shouldn't use streetcars to access the sports district.

I have heard grumblings about Detroit's system, although you tend to hear the negatives first.

[Jason]

It's not like the Federal Government hasn't encouraged this sort of multi-modalism in the recent past. [/center]

I would like to see plans drawn up for the Skyway to expand to the area of the fair grounds, north to VA/Shand's, West to Farmers Market/Woodstock Park, Southwest to Annie Lytle, Southeast to Atlantic in San Marco.

I've been working on sketches for quite some time that hits all of those areas as you've described except the sports district, which shows the line I mapped out in the beginning of the thread.

[Ocklawaha]

When you've got them done, send me a PM and we'll set up an article.