Mellow Mushroom Avondale meets the Parking Requirement

[thelakelander]

It's not up to a few residents and fearful shop owners to dictate what the exact square footage of the restaurant should be.  As long as they abide by the city's zoning regulations, they should be allowed to construct whatever they want.  Everything else is nothing but a circus side show.  If the others don't like it, attack the code, not the guy trying to comply with it.

[Pinky]

Life isn't fair sometimes that's why God made Lawyers!

And Bankers, all those credit default swaps, they got paid already for bad risks which they made and insured themselves on default. Now the greedy bastards are holding onto properties trying to get top dollar, gravy, on foreclosures, while neighborhoods deteriorate. Bankers are worse than lawyers.

The 'town/Benham storefront is fine for MM, but when you add a storefront in and around the garage, that is new and that is an issue with many in the shops area. It does not matter if you create a lovely facade of bricks and mortar, its still new and it smacks in the area of a Mojo expansion.

I've yet to have anyone argue, successfully, why MM cannot survive in the 6000 square feet of space they have now with the building at 'town/Benhams? That square footage is in line with what MM considers for their franchises.

No one has to argue why MM could or couldn't survive in the 6000 square foot space, that's life. I haven't heard much about what went on during the Jacksonville Historical Preservation Commission meeting I was busy. Did MM win this round?

Packed room, literally standing room only.  Several speakers both pro-MM and WLA.  WLA contingent almost exclusively very old and pickle-faced, and unclear on what specific area of issues the HPC addresses.  Much gnashing of teeth (dentures) about parking and such, completely irrelevant to HPC.

HPC approved it, with a few very minor tweaks.  I think that WLA can appeal the decision, which, given their punk-ass approach they will likely wait until one day before the appeal deadline to do.  Anything to drag out the process, y'know?  Still, it can't be considered as anything other than a major loss for the WLA folks. 

Most discussion by the commission was focused on the open seating area at the corner of Ingleside, and whether having openings facing Ingleside was consistent with the neighborhood.  MM countered that the openings are necessary to legally comply with state regs for smoking-areas.  HPC solution was to require openable windows instead of just open spaces.  Other than that it was just silly stuff like wanting stucco and brick instead of stone. 

[If_I_Loved_you]

Life isn't fair sometimes that's why God made Lawyers!

And Bankers, all those credit default swaps, they got paid already for bad risks which they made and insured themselves on default. Now the greedy bastards are holding onto properties trying to get top dollar, gravy, on foreclosures, while neighborhoods deteriorate. Bankers are worse than lawyers.

The 'town/Benham storefront is fine for MM, but when you add a storefront in and around the garage, that is new and that is an issue with many in the shops area. It does not matter if you create a lovely facade of bricks and mortar, its still new and it smacks in the area of a Mojo expansion.

I've yet to have anyone argue, successfully, why MM cannot survive in the 6000 square feet of space they have now with the building at 'town/Benhams? That square footage is in line with what MM considers for their franchises.

No one has to argue why MM could or couldn't survive in the 6000 square foot space, that's life. I haven't heard much about what went on during the Jacksonville Historical Preservation Commission meeting I was busy. Did MM win this round?

Packed room, literally standing room only.  Several speakers both pro-MM and WLA.  WLA contingent almost exclusively very old and pickle-faced, and unclear on what specific area of issues the HPC addresses.  Much gnashing of teeth (dentures) about parking and such, completely irrelevant to HPC.

HPC approved it, with a few very minor tweaks.  I think that WLA can appeal the decision, which, given their punk-ass approach they will likely wait until one day before the appeal deadline to do.  Anything to drag out the process, y'know?  Still, it can't be considered as anything other than a major loss for the WLA folks. 

Most discussion by the commission was focused on the open seating area at the corner of Ingleside, and whether having openings facing Ingleside was consistent with the neighborhood.  MM countered that the openings are necessary to legally comply with state regs for smoking-areas.  HPC solution was to require openable windows instead of just open spaces.  Other than that it was just silly stuff like wanting stucco and brick instead of stone.

Thank you I have been over on the RAP website http://www.riversideavondale.org/index.php?id=232 and just from reading what RAP thinks makes me sick  "RAP is the neighborhood preservation and community quality of life organization for Riverside and Avondale." But what this says to me is we don't want outsiders? Mellow Mushroom is coming and it's going to take a little more time so RAP why don't you relax. 

[mtraininjax]

It's not up to a few residents and fearful shop owners to dictate what the exact square footage of the restaurant should be.  As long as they abide by the city's zoning regulations, they should be allowed to construct whatever they want.  Everything else is nothing but a circus side show.  If the others don't like it, attack the code, not the guy trying to comply with it.

I think that while you look at the MM angle from a planning and zoning angle, i look at it from a business and community angle. Many of us in Avondale do not see why MM cannot operate in the space that was allotted in 'town/benham's. The fact that MM wants to expand the space, after what Mojo's did, right or wrong, is a THE issue. 

MM has facilities at the Beach and on the Southside, but they utilized what was there (I have not seen Fleming Island, so I don't know about it). At the beach, they are in the old existing space, and on the Southside, inside a strip mall. MM Management, having been in Germany many times, I believe, thought it would be cool to incorporate the gas station with the 'town/Benham's space. It would have been cool, but not after what Mojo's pulled and did. Bad timing here, not zoning as an issue.

WLA may be attacking MM, most of the people I work with and speak with are fine with an MM in our area. MM has the rights to the 'town/benham's space, and can do with it as it pleases,  can even knock down the garage or keep it. The drawings look great on what the space could have become, however, the expansion would have smacked of Mojo's expansion and while the great and cool factor would be in place, it would be out of character with the sacrifices others have had to endure in the neighborhood.

I like what the Zoning and Planning group do for our city, I have many good friends still in Planning, but sometimes, the designs people come up with do not fit the character of the neighborhood. In this case, had MM been there before Mojo's, it could probably get this done. WLA is fanning most of the heat on this case.

MM can always open up somewhere else with these plans and ideas and probably be just fine in a strip mall in another part of town, probably without the WLA resistance.

http://www.riversideavondale.org/index.php?id=232

That is a good read, discusses how RAP has been involved in steering the project with assistance from MM. There are some awfully smart people on the RAP board, people who know, understand planning, and care about the community. It is slanderous to assume that RAP is out to keep property owners from growing a business. They only provide policies and procedures with which Commercial and Residential exist in the area. I don't see anything wrong with anything on the link. If you build it in R/A you must confer to more historic guidelines than if it were in a strip mall on the southside. That is why many of us live here, for the character and beauty of the community. You also should not lie about your development and do something other than what your plans call for....the shoe store example was perfect! It describes the Mojo issue PERFECTLY. They took a shoe store and a furniture store and converted the space into a restaurant/bar, without the need for more parking. No issue with that? Really???

[thelakelander]

It's not up to a few residents and fearful shop owners to dictate what the exact square footage of the restaurant should be.  As long as they abide by the city's zoning regulations, they should be allowed to construct whatever they want.  Everything else is nothing but a circus side show.  If the others don't like it, attack the code, not the guy trying to comply with it.

I think that while you look at the MM angle from a planning and zoning angle, i look at it from a business and community angle. Many of us in Avondale do not see why MM cannot operate in the space that was allotted in 'town/benham's. The fact that MM wants to expand the space, after what Mojo's did, right or wrong, is a THE issue.

That's not the legally binding issue though. 

MM has facilities at the Beach and on the Southside, but they utilized what was there (I have not seen Fleming Island, so I don't know about it). At the beach, they are in the old existing space, and on the Southside, inside a strip mall. MM Management, having been in Germany many times, I believe, thought it would be cool to incorporate the gas station with the 'town/Benham's space. It would have been cool, but not after what Mojo's pulled and did. Bad timing here, not zoning as an issue.

All of this is nothing more than circus side show.  If that was the sentiment held by the majority of the community (community actual sounds pretty split on this particular issue), perhaps efforts should have been made to purchase the property when it was available.  Legally, you can't stop him from opening a restaurant if its designed to comply with  the city's zoning regulations, no matter how much hot air is blown on St. Johns Avenue.  It's too late for the MM site but Monty's is still out there.

WLA may be attacking MM, most of the people I work with and speak with are fine with an MM in our area. MM has the rights to the 'town/benham's space, and can do with it as it pleases,  can even knock down the garage or keep it. The drawings look great on what the space could have become, however, the expansion would have smacked of Mojo's expansion and while the great and cool factor would be in place, it would be out of character with the sacrifices others have had to endure in the neighborhood.

How exactly is the project out of character and sacrifices what others have had to endure in the neighborhood?  On the surface, redevelopment of a blighted site, job creation, high property tax generation, more foot traffic, etc. in a commercial district seems like a plus.

I like what the Zoning and Planning group do for our city, I have many good friends still in Planning, but sometimes, the designs people come up with do not fit the character of the neighborhood. In this case, had MM been there before Mojo's, it could probably get this done. WLA is fanning most of the heat on this case.

Again, what exactly about the design does not fit within the character of the district?  Is it too tall?  Are the buildings too close or too far from the street?  I'm quite confused by this particular statement, considering it was approved by HPC last night.

MM can always open up somewhere else with these plans and ideas and probably be just fine in a strip mall in another part of town, probably without the WLA resistance.

Or WLA can accept a new place coming in or move away.  There's a lot of things all parties can do but they don't always become reality when they aren't legally binding.

http://www.riversideavondale.org/index.php?id=232

That is a good read, discusses how RAP has been involved in steering the project with assistance from MM. There are some awfully smart people on the RAP board, people who know, understand planning, and care about the community. It is slanderous to assume that RAP is out to keep property owners from growing a business. They only provide policies and procedures with which Commercial and Residential exist in the area. I don't see anything wrong with anything on the link. If you build it in R/A you must confer to more historic guidelines than if it were in a strip mall on the southside. That is why many of us live here, for the character and beauty of the community. You also should not lie about your development and do something other than what your plans call for....the shoe store example was perfect! It describes the Mojo issue PERFECTLY. They took a shoe store and a furniture store and converted the space into a restaurant/bar, without the need for more parking. No issue with that? Really???

Great read indeed and I agree with a lot of what you've stated here.  However, you have to admit, you guys are pretty split on this idea of what "character and beauty" actually is for the community.  A good segment of the community feels they have no representation. How you handle that over the next few months will be pretty interesting to see.

[tufsu1]

MM has facilities at the Beach and on the Southside, but they utilized what was there (I have not seen Fleming Island, so I don't know about it). At the beach, they are in the old existing space, and on the Southside, inside a strip mall.

umm, no...at the beach, they completely reconstructed the building....and on Southside, they have a very large outdoor patio space....with live music at night....you know, just what some in Avondale don't want

[JaxDiablo]

I'm not completely versed in PUDs and overlays, but is this something that should be brought to light concerning the parking concerns with MM coming to the RAP area?

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/steve-patterson/2012-09-20/parking-king-street-restaurant-chases-two-bills

[JeffreyS]

I will ask again has anyone had to walk over two blocks from anywhere they want to park to their destination door. I have been asking for a year and apparently no one here has had to even walk the two block gauntlet.

[KEGreene1]

I have not.  However after reading it, I had two thoughts.  One, my fat American butt could use a little walking before and after eating such a heavy meal.  My second though (which probably made me had my 1st thought) was I remember a friend of mine who just go back from Europe.  He couldn't say enough about how great the food was, the beer, the wine...and no one was over weight.  He attributed the lack of over weight people to everyone walking...  My friend is against MM in Avondale because of the parking.  I find it ironic. 

[BridgeTroll]

I will ask again has anyone had to walk over two blocks from anywhere they want to park to their destination door. I have been asking for a year and apparently no one here has had to even walk the two block gauntlet.

I have... but it is not often.  I often park on the street behind Brick and Bluefish.  On busy evenings... the street is virtually clogged.  It basically becomes a one way street.  If two cars meet from opposing directions... one car must find a spot to pull over and let the other by.  I certainly can see an issue regarding the passage of emergency vehicles.

[acme54321]

The city needs to come in there and paint out parking stalls on one side of those streets.  Problem solved.  If you aren't in a spot you get towed.

[thelakelander]

I will ask again has anyone had to walk over two blocks from anywhere they want to park to their destination door. I have been asking for a year and apparently no one here has had to even walk the two block gauntlet.

I have... but it is not often.  I often park on the street behind Brick and Bluefish.  On busy evenings... the street is virtually clogged.  It basically becomes a one way street.  If two cars meet from opposing directions... one car must find a spot to pull over and let the other by.  I certainly can see an issue regarding the passage of emergency vehicles.

In major cities, they make narrow streets like these single one way through lanes.  When you have a gridded street network in a neighborhood not built for every resident to have two and three cars, why dedicate so much roadway width on a residential street to bi-directional through traffic?

Chicago


New Orleans


Washington, DC

[BridgeTroll]

I don't disagree at all Lake... That may indeed be the solution for that street... along with various parking restrictions.  (fire lane, painted spaces,etc) The reality for this particular street... at this particular time is... that due to the increase in customers to the various establishments in Avondale... the current situation on that street is less than satisfactory for those who actually live there.

[Gators312]

I will ask again has anyone had to walk over two blocks from anywhere they want to park to their destination door. I have been asking for a year and apparently no one here has had to even walk the two block gauntlet.

I fully agree with this, and also have seen no proactive approaches by businesses or property owners to inform patrons of the Shoppes that there are other options than the Talbot & Riverside to park on. 

If the business owners were to tell their patrons "Hey it's not a good idea to park: "insert trouble area" but you should try to park @ Boone Park or "here" or "here"  it would alleviate the congestion.

The "problems" with the parking in the area of the shoppes is only really occurring for short periods time maybe a couple hours on certain days.  It's not like they have these problems 24/7.   There have been countless times I drive down St Johns Ave and see plenty of parking at all hours of the day or night.

[If_I_Loved_you]

The city needs to come in there and paint out parking stalls on one side of those streets.  Problem solved.  If you aren't in a spot you get towed.

This is a good idea or put up no parking signs on one side of the given street. And since no one in Avondale owns the public road outside their home. No residents could park in the painted out parking spaces!