Large scale development and Riverside/Avondale

[Captain Zissou]

FROM THE RAP WEBSITE

Preservation Commission, members of the Commission, who are professionals in the field of architecture, construction and planning, gave the project’s design team specific instructions that were more detailed than the City staff report, including enclosing the corner space because open corners on buildings are not a historic development pattern within the St. Johns Avenue commercial corridor.

So because nobody currently has a patio on the corner, MM can't have one? This doesn't make sense to me.  Did the brick try and get open air seating or something?

What happened to the original plan to save a historic building? Isn’t RAP supposed to preserve buildings?The former gas station building is not a contributing historic structure to our district.

How about we demolish some non-contributing residents from this approval process?  I've got a dozen or so in mind.

RAP is the neighborhood preservation and community quality of life organization for Riverside and Avondale

Since when have they been known as RAPQOLO?  They have no jurisdiction over quality of life.  This is a gross mismanagement of power and I hope people are taking notice.

[JFman00]

So... RAP is an HOA?

It's sad/amusing to me that organizations like this not only pick and choose what they call "historic", they mock history by requiring that new things look old. Instead of truly preserving history while acknowledging that change happens, RAP (and other overzealous organizations like it across the country) seek to turn neighborhoods into a Disney Fantasyland. The more I hear about RAP and read their positions, the more I'm reminded of JCP or Eagle Harbor and the more I'm turned off by the idea of living inside their jurisdiction.

When other cities freeze entire neighborhoods in time (New Orleans French Quarter, Savannah, Charleston, Georgetown in DC) they're often seeking to increase tourism and boost economic activity (things RAP claims to like, as long as it somehow doesn't involve more people or more cars). Seems like RAP loves the idea instead of turning the neighborhood into a exclusive, gated, cookie cutter suburb instead.

[Intuition Ale Works]

Here is an example of the issue I have with the whole process.

Lisa Sheppard is a RAP board member and presented the Mellow Mushroom Report at HPC.

Jennifer Mansfield, another RAP board member, sits on the commission.

She recused herself from the hearing so that she could speak in opposition to the Mellow Mushrooms application.

How can any small business in this neighborhood get a fair shake?

[kln1323]

has anyone told RAP to fuck off yet
    RAP is
(c)RAP


Bumper stickers coming soon....who wants one?

[cityimrov]

So, how much longer until MM brings out the big lawyers to allow themselves to build this place?  Sort of like how Donald Trump always brings out his big lawyers to let him to build whenever and whatever he wants. 

[If_I_Loved_you]

has anyone told RAP to fuck off yet
    RAP is
(c)RAP


Bumper stickers coming soon....who wants one?

(C)RAP washes off RAP never will.

[Pinky]

I have happily and will remain happily uninvolved in the MM issue...That said, God Save Jacksonville the day that someone actually proposes an intense use in the Historic District. You know, like something you would see in a big boy city.

I haven't been able to keep up with the whole MM issue, but can someone fill me in. Are the majority of complainants (outside of the businesses and RAP) residents of the wealthy area east of St. Johns Ave.? Are they the ones pushing RAP to fight this?

Readers Digest Version:  Local boy John Valentino, who grew up in Avondale, purchases derelict gas station and leases (I think, maybe bought?  Not sure) the adjacent building which was formerly 'town (a restaurant) and Emily Benhams (shoe store) with intention of opening another of his wildly successful and remarkably cool locally-owned Mellow Mushroom Pizza Bakers franchises.  (He owns the other Jacksonville locations; Southside by Tinseltown, the one at the Beaches and the one in Fleming Island.)   

Original plan is to use 'town/Benham space for the restaurant section, and re-use gas station for bar area.  It would have been extremely cool, and would have kicked the shit out of the other restaurants in Avondale.  Seeing this, said restaurants banded together with a few NIMBY types and local attorneys to form We Love Avondale LLC, ostensibly to shield themselves individually from potential Business Interference litigation, and begin an outrageous campaign of bullshit, innuendo and outright fabrication, all in an effort to prevent a strong competitor from opening in their hood.  "Preservation-minded" opposition pushes him to, among other preposterous things, demolish sixty year old Gas Station building in favor of parking, which he agrees to.  (Smart money says this was a bit of Judo Commerce; had he just come out looking to rebuild on the gas station site the Oppositional NIMBYS would have forced him to reuse the building; now he gets to build a nice new building..)

Anyway, Local Boy John Valentino engages RAP and WLA in a seemingly good natured effort to cooperate and accommodate their requests, which quickly shows itself to be nothing more than a Dog And Pony Show, intended to bleed the guy into giving up.  That process continues, and John continues to jump through ever-moving hoops and make concession after concession.  Some folks think he's a fool for playing the game, while others think he's a savvy businessman who is slowly and patiently building a record in preparation for a shitstorm of litigation.  I know John, and frankly I can't really get a read on the cat; he's a really nice, calm dude on one hand, but a million-plus dollars is a hell of a lot of money, and eventually if you push any man far enough he will come out swinging. 

That's pretty much the thing in a nutshell.  It's some major bullshit. 

[strider]

Most of the so called preservationists really aren't.  They put use above saving anything.  True in Springfield, Riverside and, well, all over actually, and it is not limited to the organizations but even the very commissions and city departments created to govern that preservation.  RAP should very seldom worry about use, their concern should end at the appearance of the building, IE: does it meet the historic guidelines?  The city has people who do and can worry about zoning and whether a use meets the criteria of the current zoning codes.  The public can and should be able speak up at public comment meetings and send those e-mails and letters to their respective council person.  Rap should not be speaking about this use as an organization.  By doing so, they are doing a disservice to a large number of people who support them.  They were put into place and supported for preservation reasons, not usage. 

Of course, this is the real world where Joe Public's opinion means very little unless he can take the time and afford the effort to yell louder and more often than everyone else.  And this is Jacksonville where zoning overly's are written, passed and interpreted to turn historic areas into suburban like communities rather than embrace what they were once when populated by every single economic class and thereby successful and what they could be once again if given the chance.

What was originally presented was by far the superior idea.  And who should get to decide whether a 60's gas station, especially when re-purposed into a much more friendlier use, is not exactly what fits into a historic neighborhood?  That 3, yes 3 (19 to 22), less parking spots were not worth the result? 

It is our fault in the end.  We fail to take the time or make the effort to change things, or we can't afford to. So things stay the same, people get away with what they do and we post here on a forum and complain about it.

[mtraininjax]

Got lots to do before another meeting, but this is a good topic and lots of good banter. Keep it up!

Jack

[KEGreene1]

(c)RAP: You can call them all the names you want, but it will not change anything.  The only way to create change is speak intelligently, using examples of why what they are doing is wrong and/or a conflict of interest and do it in the presence of the right people.  The same reason I think it is important to continually call out the false statements in both We Love Avondale, LLC propaganda and RAP's website.  Doing it on here only informs a select few (who probably have already made up their minds). 

[thelakelander]

(c)RAP: You can call them all the names you want, but it will not change anything.  The only way to create change is speak intelligently, using examples of why what they are doing is wrong and/or a conflict of interest and do it in the presence of the right people.

+1,000

[Pinky]

(c)RAP: You can call them all the names you want, but it will not change anything.  The only way to create change is speak intelligently, using examples of why what they are doing is wrong and/or a conflict of interest and do it in the presence of the right people.  The same reason I think it is important to continually call out the false statements in both We Love Avondale, LLC propaganda and RAP's website.  Doing it on here only informs a select few (who probably have already made up their minds).

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the usefulness of discussing this here; this thread has had almost 900 views *in one day*.  There are a hell of a lot more people reading these threads than posting, and frankly, RAP's "MM FAQ's" page reads like a direct response to the points that have been discussed here on MetroJax.  While I agree that these conversations also need to take place in other venues, I think that this forum occupies a very unique space in the public dialog in Jacksonville and is uniquely positioned to reach and educate people to then go forward and have those conversations.

[thelakelander]

The key in a land use debate is to take the information gained in a place like this and get it in front of the people voting to approve or deny, along with a decent amount of support behind your position.  That makes it much harder for a politico to vote a particular way if there is considerable opposition to that viewpoint.

[KEGreene1]

That is my point.  Just because you read about it and you make/change your opinion about it, doesn't mean you have done anything about it.  You have 900 views on this thread today, but how many of them will pick up the phone or write an email or show up at a meeting to voice their opinion (I've written numerous emails; as all the meetings seem to be scheduled while I'm working elsewhere).  This isn't something you go to the polls and vote on anonymously, this is an issue that if you feel one way or the other (and judging by 900+ views quite a few of you have an opinion) you need to voice that opinion with your City Councilman or go to one of the two upcoming meetings that are scheduled. 

[If_I_Loved_you]

(c)RAP: You can call them all the names you want, but it will not change anything.  The only way to create change is speak intelligently, using examples of why what they are doing is wrong and/or a conflict of interest and do it in the presence of the right people.  The same reason I think it is important to continually call out the false statements in both We Love Avondale, LLC propaganda and RAP's website.  Doing it on here only informs a select few (who probably have already made up their minds).

I've been to meetings in the past for several years I'm done I will voice my opinion here on metrojacksonville because it's fun.