Just a reminder about who runs our city

[Debbie Thompson]

You guys think FBC is the only church that runs this city? you seem to forget the other mega churches such as: Westside Baptist Church, North Jacksonville, New Life Christian Fellowhip, Christ Church, Bethel Baptist, Titus Harvest Dome, Evangel Temple, etc.....it isnt only the members of FBC contacting City Council to influence thier votes.

And then there are the two dozen or so pastors, mine (Bruce Havens) among them, who stood up publicly for the ordinance.  Bruce not only stood up for it, but preaches love and acceptance from the pulpit as well. 

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/letters-readers/2012-05-09/story/point-view-first-coast-clergy-speak-against-discrimination

[Steve_Lovett]

As a city with a less-than stellar civil rights history and track record you would think that the City Council would be very focused on changing Jacksonville's culture and perception. The growth and revitalization that city leaders claim to want demands it.

This would've been an easy way to do it -- these protections are in almost every company's employee manual these days (including mine), and have been for many years.

[ronchamblin]

Does anyone have the opinion that the following statement is not true? 

"While at least a dozen other cities have achieved successful revitalization of their inner cores, or at least are well on the way to doing so, the city of Jacksonville has failed to do so after about three decades of recognition of the need to do so."

[Steve_Lovett]

Does anyone have the opinion that the following statement is not true? 

"While at least a dozen other cities have achieved successful revitalization of their inner cores, or at least are well on the way to doing so, the city of Jacksonville has failed to do so after about three decades of recognition of the need to do so."

That statement is not true. Rather than at least a dozen, in order for it to be accurate it should say "several dozen".

[ronchamblin]

Thanks Steve.  I suppose that the quantity might be more than I had thought.  So...we modify the statement.


"While at least several dozen other cities have achieved successful revitalization of their inner cores, or at least are well on the way to doing so, the city of Jacksonville has failed to do so after about three decades of recognition of the need to do so."

If the statement is true, then we might begin to ponder what characteristic or characteristics in Jacksonville has allowed it to remain without revitalization over three decades.  The fact of failure over so many years allows me to suspect that there is a single obstacle to revitalization, or perhaps at most two or three, which are related, somewhat subtle, somewhat hidden from the casual observer, but significant in their ability to obstruct real progress to revitization of the city core. 

[spuwho]

Thanks Steve.  I suppose that the quantity might be more than I had thought.  So...we modify the statement.


"While at least several dozen other cities have achieved successful revitalization of their inner cores, or at least are well on the way to doing so, the city of Jacksonville has failed to do so after about three decades of recognition of the need to do so."

If the statement is true, then we might begin to ponder what characteristic or characteristics in Jacksonville has allowed it to remain without revitalization over three decades.  The fact of failure over so many years allows me to suspect that there is a single obstacle to revitalization, or perhaps at most two or three, which are related, somewhat subtle, somewhat hidden from the casual observer, but significant in their ability to obstruct real progress to revitization of the city core.

I think you are looking for a conspiracy that doesn't exist. (Ed Ball fans included)

From my observation, Jacksonville's "condition" is more symbolic to years of lost economic power which has translated into poor leadership decisions, some of which have had long lasting impacts.

I think MJ has covered ad nauseum all of the poor, non-strategic decisions that have occurred during Jacksonville's post-war decline, so no need to repeat them here.

It has been made pretty clear that a new level of leadership needs to take place to move Jacksonville towards the future. It just can't be the mayor, it just can't be the council.

[Timkin]

Please.  Someone.  Run against Lumb.

Stephen, is this your pulpit to discuss your desire to run?

I'd vote for you, hell, I'd even campaign for you to win. I don't always agree with you on your posts and ideas, but I respect that you use what God gave you between your ears and that you use it, which is more than we can say for most council members.

Jack

I will wholeheartedly second this , and vote for you and help campaign. .   I have held my tongue about First Baptist Church and will pretty much continue to do so. But I don't like this kind of influence from them.

-Timkin

[mtraininjax]

FBC has the money and the masses, so what does the opposition have? Time will tell. So far, lots of hot air on the board, surely someone can step forward and START with some action?

[ronchamblin]

Thanks Steve.  I suppose that the quantity might be more than I had thought.  So...we modify the statement.


"While at least several dozen other cities have achieved successful revitalization of their inner cores, or at least are well on the way to doing so, the city of Jacksonville has failed to do so after about three decades of recognition of the need to do so."

If the statement is true, then we might begin to ponder what characteristic or characteristics in Jacksonville has allowed it to remain without revitalization over three decades.  The fact of failure over so many years allows me to suspect that there is a single obstacle to revitalization, or perhaps at most two or three, which are related, somewhat subtle, somewhat hidden from the casual observer, but significant in their ability to obstruct real progress to revitization of the city core.

I think you are looking for a conspiracy that doesn't exist. (Ed Ball fans included)

From my observation, Jacksonville's "condition" is more symbolic to years of lost economic power which has translated into poor leadership decisions, some of which have had long lasting impacts.

I think MJ has covered ad nauseum all of the poor, non-strategic decisions that have occurred during Jacksonville's post-war decline, so no need to repeat them here.

It has been made pretty clear that a new level of leadership needs to take place to move Jacksonville towards the future. It just can't be the mayor, it just can't be the council.

Spuwho, you use the word conspiracy.  The problem is not an intentional conspiracy, but a movement or platform of necessity, which has emerged in the jax political realm and power structure out of the pressures of self-preservation, of survival, of one’s desire to keep what comfort, power, and wealth one has, of one’s desire to perpetuate the mechanism which ensures one’s position of privilege and comfort, even when the mechanism includes an association, mostly insincere, with a church.

[Tacachale]

I missed it, but Littlepage posted the video to jacksonville.com on Sept. 12:

The Jacksonville City Council members who voted to deprive the city's gay and lesbian communities the most basic of rights, to not be discriminated against in employment, housing and public accommodations, received their reward from First Baptist Church.

Check out this video of the praise they got for standing "in the gap."

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/406107/ron-littlepage/2012-09-12/watch-first-baptist-church-blessing-council-members

[Timkin]

FBC has the money and the masses, so what does the opposition have? Time will tell. So far, lots of hot air on the board, surely someone can step forward and START with some action?

  Would you like to start?

[Debbie Thompson]

Freedom of speech.  The establishment clause calls for no state religion.  It doesn't say religious people are not allowed to have an opinion, or state it. We don't have to agree, but everyone is allowed an opinion.

Separation of church and state isn't in the Constiution.  It's in a letter to a group of ministers in Danbury. The ministers were afraid of a "Church of the United States" to which they would be forced to pledge allegiance or  be persecuted, like happened with the Church of England.  Over the years, we've extrapolated and expanded on that until some of us think believers shouldn't have any say in secular decisions, lest they "contaminate" the process.

That said, I supported 296, and so did a lot of believers of all faiths.

[finehoe]

Over the years, we've extrapolated and expanded on that until some of us think believers shouldn't have any say in secular decisions, lest they "contaminate" the process.

I'm sorry, but the only people who believe that are far-right theocrats who get bent out shape when non-religious people refuse to follow the dictates of the theocrats religion.

As church-state scholar Leo Pfeffer notes in his book, Church, State and Freedom,

"It is true, of course, that the phrase 'separation of church and state' does not appear in the Constitution. But it was inevitable that some convenient term should come into existence to verbalize a principle so clearly and widely held by the American people....[T]he right to a fair trial is generally accepted to be a constitutional principle; yet the term 'fair trial' is not found in the Constitution. To bring the point even closer home, who would deny that 'religious liberty' is a constitutional principle? Yet that phrase too is not in the Constitution. The universal acceptance which all these terms, including 'separation of church and state,' have received in America would seem to confirm rather than disparage their reality as basic American democratic principles."

[Wacca Pilatka]

I've seen plenty of circumstances (in cities with far different religious and political demographics than Jacksonville) where religious people's collective right to speak out on a secular topic was ridiculed and marginalized.  And plenty of circumstances where "separation of church and state" as it was intended (and as most Americans probably understand it, and as Pfeffer probably intends to describe it) is extended to ridiculous extremes such as harrassing elementary school kids for silently praying over their food at lunch time in a school cafeteria. 

I'm sure that is what Debbie was describing as well.  She didn't deserve to get called a far-right theocrat or someone looking to impose dictates on others for saying it, especially as a supporter of 296.  Far-left atheocrats attempt to impose dictates on others just the same as far-right theocrats do.

(Disclosure: I'm a Christian, a supporter of 296, and disappointed in what FBC did.)

[finehoe]

I've seen plenty of circumstances (in cities with far different religious and political demographics than Jacksonville) where religious people's collective right to speak out on a secular topic was ridiculed and marginalized.  And plenty of circumstances where "separation of church and state" as it was intended (and as most Americans probably understand it, and as Pfeffer probably intends to describe it) is extended to ridiculous extremes such as harrassing elementary school kids for silently praying over their food at lunch time in a school cafeteria.

When?  Where?