World Religions - Atheism Discussion Thread

[ronchamblin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqB3F6N527U

Again a beautiful post Nomeus. showing a great video.  This is the kind of honesty I love to see.  It's brutal, but quite true in my view.

[BridgeTroll]

Ah... so you are simply more rational than the vast majority of humans to ever walk the earth.  I bow to you superior... um... er... rationality.

You don't have to be a virtuoso to tell when someone else is singing out of tune.

very true Adam... very true...

[ronchamblin]

It’s encouraging to see that there is less of the emotional sniping at each other, and more calm and thoughtful exchanges as we engage the potentially volatile subject of religion and the idea of some kind of a god existing within our universe.  I’ve found myself occasionally exhibiting excessive emotion, and have sensed later that I could have conveyed my ideas better with less of it.  Although the cultivation of emotion is occasionally fun, in most cases, as emotion subsides, reason arrives.   

[BridgeTroll]

In all fairness, most of us are vastly more rational than the majority of human beings to ever walk the earth, bridge troll.

Even little children today know that the earth is round and that the sun isn't an opinionated fire dragon.

It's not terribly fair to criticize someone by basically calling them a know it all just because they disagree with long dead scientists who also believed thing like the (pardon the pun) fallacy that the male erection is caused by an inflation of the lungs (da Vinci)

I'm fine with that.  Seems a bit off putting to say that I am more rational than you because I believe this or that.  There is an air of superiority to those types of statements that rubs my fur the wrong way... perhaps it is just me though.

[Ocklawaha]

As I have stated before, Religion is of Man, by Man and for Man

No argument in this statement, RELIGION is man's weak attempt to reach out and touch God. Mankind is often infected (to use Ron's term) with inherent evil, evil I don't understand and be it selling unneeded roofing to flood victims, or creating a glass palace 'to God' it's just plain wrong.

IMO, 'church' should be nothing more then the 'body' of believers in a common deity seeking to do good in the world.

[BridgeTroll]

In all fairness, most of us are vastly more rational than the majority of human beings to ever walk the earth, bridge troll.

Even little children today know that the earth is round and that the sun isn't an opinionated fire dragon.

It's not terribly fair to criticize someone by basically calling them a know it all just because they disagree with long dead scientists who also believed thing like the (pardon the pun) fallacy that the male erection is caused by an inflation of the lungs (da Vinci)

I'm fine with that.  Seems a bit off putting to say that I am more rational than you because I believe this or that.  There is an air of superiority to those types of statements that rubs my fur the wrong way... perhaps it is just me though.

So you don't really mean to use the device in order to force your opponent into a defensive position by forcing them to prove that your argument has equal weight because as people you have equal human worth?

That's usually the reason that I see the argument used.

As I told Ron... there really is no "argument".  I don't care what Ben believes, nor Ock, nor Adam, nor Ron.  It is their belief.  My feathers were ruffled when Ben decided his belief is more rational than someone elses... because... well... he is more rational.  As a matter of fact he said most humans were irrational... apparently with the exceptions of those who thought as he does.  I had to clarify his position to understand just where he is coming from.  Now I know.

[Adam W]

I agree Bridge Troll - I've got enough issues worrying about what I believe and think than to worry about what others believe.

Just leave me alone and I'll reciprocate!

[BridgeTroll]

I agree Bridge Troll - I've got enough issues worrying about what I believe and think than to worry about what others believe.

Just leave me alone and I'll reciprocate!

That is where I stand also.

[Ocklawaha]

The whole idea behind this thread was never to try and 'convert' the other side, rather, to have a look into what others believe and why. Speaking of belief, believe me when I tell you that this thread was set up by a Christian and an Atheist working together for this common goal. I'm glad it's been pretty civil, as we decided early on that we would tolerate ZERO name calling and insults. That said, if you are here to score points or crush someones belief or disbelief with some self proclaimed 'superiority', you're in the wrong place and in danger of being deleted. Keep it nice and let's continue to have intelligent conversation on various belief systems in the world.

THANKS TO ALL. You may now resume your discussions....

[nomeus]

my god is better than your god? protestants vs catholic... gets interesting at 1:38

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My5cf2zlkpo&feature=youtu.be

silly people

[Adam W]

At its core, that's not really about religion.

[Ocklawaha]

my god is better than your god? protestants vs catholic... gets interesting at 1:38

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My5cf2zlkpo&feature=youtu.be

silly people

Sorry my friend but Judaism, Islam and Christianity (both Catholic and Protestants, and a few who don't fit either) all share the same creator God. I'll check out the video later but that's my first reaction, gotta leave for a while.

[Ocklawaha]

I must work now, but tremble in your boots, as I will return with a vengeance, with sober logic, with concern, with wisdom, with honesty, with detailed opposition to some of the statements and arguments offered above.   

I missed this earlier Ron, LOL!

WORK? I don't do anything at all, daddy sends me a check.

[PeeJayEss]

I'm a little late to this rodeo, but I think you are misinterpreting the Bible to some extent from all the posts I've read. There are often many layers of meaning within the text, and each book was written with certain contexts that need to be considered to gain a proper understanding of its meaning. Regarding the creation story in Genesis, I think you need to consider a few things before you completely write it off. First, consider the fact that according to the first creation story in Genesis (there are two creation accounts in Genesis) the whole of creation was made in seven days, but the sun and moon are not created until the fourth day. Obviously, you cannot have a day without the sun rising and setting. That should indicate right away that this is not a literal play-by-play of the facts of creation. It is a vehicle by which certain truths are communicated. For instance, by this account we learn that God is eternal, He created us, and that man holds a special place among creation as evidenced by our free will and intellect.

Speaking of the creation of men, the story of Adam and Eve is not disproved by science because humanity is not completely defined by scientifically observable terms. Man is body and soul, and that soul is a rational soul that separates man from other animals. That's why in the second creation story in Genesis God first forms man out of clay (that is He created a body), but man is not complete until God breathes into him (imparts man with a soul). Among all the visible creation, man possesses a unique self-awareness that allows him to give himself to others and to God. The important lesson here is that at some distinct point in time humans stopped being simply the animal, Homo Sapiens, and became a man with a rational soul. Again that is something that we cannot observe scientifically, so science can neither prove or disprove in this case.

Back to the larger point, we can have a partial knowledge of God in the observable world and by reason, but He goes beyond the bounds of what is visible. He is infinite. That means we can provide evidence that points to His existence. However, in this life we can neither definitively prove nor disprove His existence. That means that it is going to come down to a matter of faith. You can put your faith in God, but it is possible to put faith in other things such as a science. I would posit that it is at least as much if not a greater leap of faith to wholly place your trust in science given how often we find that what we once thought was true actually turned out to be bunk. I pray that one day each of you may have the gift of faith in God.

P.S. - Here's an scientific theory by one of the greatest minds ever that has been disproved by later discoveries just to illustrate what I'm saying: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_universe

As a historical record, the story of Adam and Eve (as well as any other Genesis story) is disproven by fact (we need to stop throwing the word "science" around. It is fact that refutes the story, science is simply a tool used to find facts. The argument is not God v science, it is God v something else that we might be able to discover through science, which could possibly be a diety). Your argument is basically that science is another thing that we can choose to have faith in. Excepting a philosophical argument about the physical world not actually existing and all our experiences being the product of sensory perception of a 'brain in a test tube,' there is no argument against the validity of scientific fact. You attempt to prove the failure of science by pointing to the failure of scientific theories, but you do not understand what a theory is. It is a self-admitted best-guess to explain phenomenon. It does not purport to be true and require faith in its validity, but is put forth as a possible solution that demands peer review and exhaustive testing. Even an incorrect theory has compelling though incomplete evidence, which is more than can be said for any religious claim.

So you are 100% sure there is a soul imparted to man by God, though you have no proof for either, most likely because that belief has been nurtured upon you? But you are incredibly skeptical of the validity of gravity, or relativity (upon which much of modern technology is based)?

So you rely on reasons to believe in whatever and I don't?

Not on "reasons." On reason.

Do I believe in Creation? Yes, but I don't pretend to know, nor is it my job to figure out the who, what, when, where, why and how. I think a much greater extraterrestrial intelligence, directed the creation. That intelligence lives in what we might call the 4Th dimension, and trying to explain his actions away by saying it is literal, or figurative, doesn't effect what I believe.  If we learn tomorrow that the account in Genesis it exactly literally correct, I'm cool with that, if we learn that it happened over millions of years, ages, evolution, etc. then I'm cool with that too.

Here's the problem: The thing highlighted above already happened. We already know Genesis did not literally happen and we know that the Earth came about over billions of years and animals evolved over millions. You take an extraterrestrial intelligence living in the "4th dimension" as a fact (casually, almost in passing) without any proof, but are not convinced on whether Adam and Eve actually existed and a snake with legs convinced the only woman to get the only man to eat an apple (fruit) that made that diety very angry despite mountains of evidence to the contrary. There is a disconnect in reasoning.

We all seem pretty certain that there is something else or someone else out there, as advanced or more advanced then we ever will be, how can we know it's not God?

I don't think the premise here is true (not everyone believes, nor are they certain, that there is something else out there, and also not something specifically more advanced than us), but I don't think we do know its not God, and I don't think anywhere here is arguing that it definitely, positively isn't God. The problem is, you are saying you absolutely do believe it is God. You have no factual basis for this. So wouldn't it be better to say "there might be something out there, let's try and find it" than "I know what's out there, so searching/looking/learning/researching is not really necessary, some dudes thousands of years ago gave us all the answers in the form of incredibly unrealistic fiction that we have sorted through to find the answers."

[ben says]

Great post