Retail-less parking garage proposed for Downtown

[Noone]

2003-1536
2003-1537
2004-0340
2004-1303
2008-0830
2011--0700
2012-273

[I-10east]

I think the Landing would be consider kitschy/touristy/suburban in nature in many other cities.  It is walled off and doesn't serve as much of a local purpose as it could (not to mention there is not nearly enough local walk-up traffic to make it a local retail destination).

The Landing has two entrances on Independent Street, so how is it 'walled off'? You make it sound like it's a Supermax prison or something. JFMan mentioned the distance between the street and the entrances, making it 'not particularly urban' I disagree, if anything that's flexible courtyard space that is used during special events. The Landing is situated on the river, and it has a U-shaped core surrounding a courtyard with fountain, so it's not gonna have the typical 'NY square block' layout. I don't see anything suburban about the Landing at all; Every urban shopping area doesn't have to be squared off with straight parasol-lined sidewalks and traffic being a spit away.

[JFman00]

Looking at the riverfront properties is to see one large single-use structure after another, with each being it's own little world (see the Dallas Arts District). I'm mystified why those dead end streets cut off each building from the other. I'm guessing parking... Looking at what there is on the riverfront corridor is like a catalog of urban design fails: Single uses physically and spatially separated from each other, no transit, giant parking lots, essentially no public space, no parks (if that green space across from the stadium is a park, then a drainage pond is the Bellagio fountain). Fine, I get it, for some reason I'll never understand 32202 needs yet another parking garage. At least it should be integrated into its surroundings. Looking at downtown on Google Maps is like looking at UNF. Just about every building has it's own parking lot/garage. Do we want a downtown or do we want a commuter college campus?

[BackinJax05]

Arent there enough generic, ugly, parking garages downtown already?

[simms3]

And nobody's answered my question...so I want to resubmit.  Isn't it STRANGE that nobody seems to know about this proposal?  That there has been NO stories on it aside from our own article yesterday?  Folks at CBRE were just discussing it/just found out yesterday, and their office is across the street.  Reading JeffreyS's email trail with a city councilman, HE had no idea.

Folks...there is literally nothing going on in Jacksonville in terms of vertical construction, and finally something may go up on the MOST prominent development site in the city and no stories are run?  There is something fishy here...one board attached to the city already gives this a thumbs up...they are trying to push this thing through without anyone finding out.

This alone is another story in and of itself and reeks of corruption.

[thelakelander]

^This project has been proposed for a couple of years now.  I think most are just surprised its going forward with such a poor design.  It's listed on this link on page 3. 

http://www.downtownjacksonville.org/Libraries/PDF_Libraries/Development_Projects_January_2012.sflb.ashx

It was also discussed when Sleiman wanted to use the $3.5 million to purchase the lot across the street.  At the time, the JEDC and Peyton Administration wanted to build a garage on this site.

http://m.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-09-13/story/jacksonville-landing-says-35-million-grant-parking-garage-not-enough

A deal to help build a 500-space parking garage near The Jacksonville Landing won a $3.5 million pledge of support from the City Council Tuesday.

But that apparently won't change the city's decades-old obligation to finance another garage in almost the same spot.

"It's a nice addition to downtown. It doesn't have anything to do with us," said Bruce Barcelo, a lobbyist for Landing owner Toney Sleiman and investors working with him.

The city made a deal to provide parking before the Landing opened in 1987, but that still hasn't been fulfilled. Doing that would require the city to provide another 300 parking spaces on weekdays and 375 on nights and weekends.

The bill adopted Tuesday offered a developer, Parador Partners, a $3.5 million grant for building a garage along Hogan Street, between Bay and Water streets. The company owns the nearby SunTrust Building and wants to lease some spaces to building tenants.

It could also meet the Landing's night and weekend quota and open 200 weekday spots for shoppers. But Barcelo said the location doesn't meet the needs of the top-grade mall tenants the Landing seeks.

The legislation also gives Parador a five-year option to buy a sliver of land needed for some development plans.

Barcelo said the Landing still wants to work out a solution with the city and hopes progress can be made after the 2012 budget is adopted late this month. The council OK'd a bill that Sleiman favored several months ago, but former Mayor John Peyton vetoed that.

A Parador garage might end up suiting the Landing more than the company realizes, council President Stephen Joost said. He pointed out that the city has money available for a garage project with the Landing but that would require Sleiman or someone else to put up money as well.

"To do nothing is not the right answer," Joost said.

[fsujax]

I am not really too surprised Councilman Lumb didn't know about it. Going to DDRB is usually the first step for any project Downtown to recieve approval. I really can't wait to attend the meeting today. Can't wait to hear what some of the members have to say.

[JeffreyS]

I think tufsu has given us the reason for the poor design.

So the idiots at the developer agencies / engineering firms didn't even bother to READ about the recommendations.

I'm betting they know quite well what the requirements are....but they are going to see what they can get away with....clearly this stripped-down garage will be relatively inexpensive to construct.

If the review board/ City Council / concerned citizens demand the developers live up to the design standards for the area they will.

[simms3]

^This project has been proposed for a couple of years now.  I think most are just surprised its going forward with such a poor design.  It's listed on this link on page 3. 

http://www.downtownjacksonville.org/Libraries/PDF_Libraries/Development_Projects_January_2012.sflb.ashx

It was also discussed when Sleiman wanted to use the $3.5 million to purchase the lot across the street.  At the time, the JEDC and Peyton Administration wanted to build a garage on this site.

http://m.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-09-13/story/jacksonville-landing-says-35-million-grant-parking-garage-not-enough

I remember the stories and prior proposals for the site (I have those renderings clipped out as they were originally presented 5+ years ago), but I guess I didn't think "just" a garage would be proposed for the site, let alone this.  I feel like with decent/major projects there are news stories that break and discussions had before any procedures to "move forward" with plans are made, yet this seems like it is as quietly as possible slipping through (I guess because it's the shittiest project I have EVER seen proposed and anyone who passes it should be given the friggin chair for murdering downtown and they know that).

I guess I'm drawing an analogy here, but if Dewberry were to put up the same thing near me at the corner of 10th and Peachtree all major news outlets, bloggers, activists, would know about it before it went before the local review board and there would literally be riots.  It would be a major news story (I mean all developments are at least somewhere in news outlets, and the major ones get front page of business section and a mention in the BizJournal).

This article from 12 months ago is the last mention of Parador in the Jax BizJournal.

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2011/06/09/jedc-backs-35m-city-grant-for.html

Now with a rendering and plans moving forward you would THINK this would be featured prominently front and center with a "Poll" asking readers what they think of the plans on such a prominent site.

[Lunican]

Another crazy aspect of this garage is that it won't even solve the dedicated parking issue for the Landing!

But that apparently won't change the city's decades-old obligation to finance another garage in almost the same spot.

"It's a nice addition to downtown. It doesn't have anything to do with us," said Bruce Barcelo, a lobbyist for Landing owner Toney Sleiman and investors working with him.

[simms3]

I  also just looked up Parador (5-second search).  The guys are from Atlanta, but I don't think they do RE business in Atl.  Let's make sure they aren't able to do RE business in Jax either.  They don't even have a website and I have no idea what projects they are attached to or who they are for that matter.

In fact the only story attached with the trio/partnership is that they paid $10M cash for 190,000 unsold SF of the SunTrust tower.  One of the partners sold an electronic invoicing company to American Express, so these guys aren't even real estate guys.

Actually, while the price of the unsold office condos may have been attractive, I think anyone who knows anything about real estate/office would have stayed as far away from that deal as possible for too many reasons to list.

There's nothing that makes sense about this garage - the financials, the market, the design, there is nothing that makes sense here.

[thelakelander]

At six levels, this thing is going to tower over the Landing from the riverfront.  Coming across the Acosta Bridge this morning, it was easy to visualize how this thing is going to stain the waterfront skyline view.  This is a project that should definitely be built to be structurally sound enough to support a building on top of it at a future date.  The site is to prime and centrally located to waste on a Haskell garage kit.

[thelakelander]

Another example of a plain parking garage with street level retail.  This one is in the heart of downtown Fort Lauderdale.




Another Fort Lauderdale parking garage about a block away.  This one is set back from the street with a thin strip of retail along the sidewalk.  Nothing impressive architecturally but it still enhances walkability at street level.

[JeffreyS]

Ok people we need to show up today and throughout this process. Every postcard, every downtown event, every espn shot of downtown,every drive into downtown, every walk on the riverfront and every meal that any big wig eats at Ruth's Chris will have this garage displayed prominently.

Contact the Board and Council now and do your best to show up.

[PeeJayEss]

The Landing has two entrances on Independent Street, so how is it 'walled off'? You make it sound like it's a Supermax prison or something. JFMan mentioned the distance between the street and the entrances, making it 'not particularly urban' I disagree, if anything that's flexible courtyard space that is used during special events. The Landing is situated on the river, and it has a U-shaped core surrounding a courtyard with fountain, so it's not gonna have the typical 'NY square block' layout. I don't see anything suburban about the Landing at all; Every urban shopping area doesn't have to be squared off with straight parasol-lined sidewalks and traffic being a spit away.

Isn't "shopping center" inherently suburban? It is "walled off." You can't see the businesses from the street. The only indication of businesses to the passerby is a sign with all listed (much like a suburban shopping center). There is a food court upstairs. There are two sets of doors, but the visual impact is still the same to the passerby. You see a wall with no visible activity going on. I'd say suburban is a pretty reasonable argument to make. Its not organic, it is a contrived commercial development, a small mall on a river downtown. That's not necessarily a negative. I think the Landing is the best use of riverfront property that we have in Jacksonville, and certainly the Northbank. I believe the argument - and I agree with this - is that the Landing could be improve (better tied in with the urban fabric of the city) by opening up its street side. Then you can see activity from the street.